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Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by EulersK, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. lostbrane

    lostbrane Arachnoknight Arachnosupporter

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    P. rufilata will eventually be put under the protections of the ESA. It and 5 other species were listed in the original petition. Due to budget constraints it didn’t get added to the latest decision, as well as the other Indian species.
     
  2. SonsofArachne

    SonsofArachne Arachnoknight Active Member

    If the Indian species are listed, and they likely will be, then P.rufilata will be one of them.
     
  3. MantisSpider29

    MantisSpider29 Arachnopeon Active Member

    Alright I know a little more about this ban. So no interstate sales can happen but, we can still trade pokies through interstate boundaries or something along the lines like that right?
     
  4. lostbrane

    lostbrane Arachnoknight Arachnosupporter

    Breeding loans are fine. Trading one for another spider seems pretty iffy. Giving one away for free is also fine.
     
  5. MantisSpider29

    MantisSpider29 Arachnopeon Active Member

    So it is like selling waterbottles at fairs. You can't sell waterbottles but, you can sell toothpicks for a dollar each and each toothpick comes with a free bottle of water.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  6. Aleetist

    Aleetist Arachnosquire Active Member

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    Please go back and read through the pages of posts to understand why this is wrong and can't/won't happen.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. advan

    advan oOOo Staff Member

    Breeding loans are not fine. If you are gifting a male to someone than yes, if you expect spiderlings in return that is not fine.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. lostbrane

    lostbrane Arachnoknight Arachnosupporter

    How so are the spiderlings not ok to be sent back? I didn’t see anything in the final decision or the question sheet that said anything about that being illegal. They aren’t being entered into commerce...

    But yes, the male would definitely have to be gifted.

    I can see it that maybe FWS has a different definition of loan but from what I saw, they explicitly stated that loans were ok. It would baffle me to no end if somehow the spiderlings would not be considered a gift in that specific instance. However, as I have previously stated elsewhere in this thread, I could be completey incorrect in this interpretation so any illumination would be greatly appreciated!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. SonsofArachne

    SonsofArachne Arachnoknight Active Member

    I'm starting to think we're over-thinking this. FWS budget has been cut a number of times including the last budget. I seriously doubt if they're going to be chasing down every breeding loan to make sure everything was done perfectly correct. I'm not a breeder, so I'm not risking anything, but I still don't think they're going to form a special pokie task force to check every trade, breeding loan, etc. Now, that being said, I would still advise against selling them - that would likely bring trouble down on your head.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. MetalMan2004

    MetalMan2004 Arachnobaron Active Member

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    The FAQ sheet they put out after the decision stated that loans were okay. I also emailed the contact listed on the decision paper for clarification and they stated that a loan with offspring given back in return was fine as long as money was not involved.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. sdsnybny

    sdsnybny Arachnogeek Arachnosupporter

    @advan Am I reading the ESA fact page wrong? It seems breeding loans via shipping your male/female to the breeder and receiving it and your portion of said offspring is not a violation and does not require a permit.

    https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/faq.html
    "What situations are exempt from the prohibitions of the ESA?
    Loans and Gifts
    Lawfully taken and held endangered and threatened species may be shipped interstate as a bona fide gift or loan if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain. A standard breeding loan, where no money or other consideration changes hands but some offspring are returned to the lender of a breeding animal, is not considered a commercial activity and, thus, is not prohibited by the ESA and does not require a permit. Documentation of such an activity should accompany shipment."
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  12. MintyWood826

    MintyWood826 Arachnoknight Active Member

    Only now have I noticed this part...what sort of documentation? Breeding papers?
     
  13. sdsnybny

    sdsnybny Arachnogeek Arachnosupporter

    I would imagine sending and receiving party contact info, species and sex w/terms of loan. Something simple just showing whats going on should it be stooped and inspected.
     
  14. Aleetist

    Aleetist Arachnosquire Active Member

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    You are probably correct, but I think it's most likely for the best that we dissect this all now so that we know we can be above board on transactions so that there isn't as much confusion when a year from now someone asks "so can I X with my P. ornata?" we can give a definitive yes or no with proper reasoning and advise on how they can legally go about their business. Better to be above board and protect the hobby from further scrutiny. The fewer bad shipments there are the less likely there is a chance they will get seen which means better things (or at least will hopefully stave off worse things) for the hobby in general imho.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Award Award x 1
  15. SonsofArachne

    SonsofArachne Arachnoknight Active Member

    I agree with this, but there are many conflicting statements on this thread and some make it seem like the moment you make a mistake a swat team will break down your door. I made comments about possible loopholes and some people made it seem like I was breaking the law just talking about it. It's getting a little ridiculous.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. MintyWood826

    MintyWood826 Arachnoknight Active Member

  17. MantisSpider29

    MantisSpider29 Arachnopeon Active Member

    Hope the list on tomsbigspiders keeps growing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  18. Drezan

    Drezan Arachnopeon Active Member

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    Honestly though, what's to stop people from selling these breeds of spider? The people at FedEx aren't going to know xD
     
  19. SonsofArachne

    SonsofArachne Arachnoknight Active Member

    Actually you probably could get away with it as long as you kept it quiet, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way that I'm wrong.
     
    • Like Like x 1