Euathlus sp. red fasting + abdomen shrinking

[Nmilburn14]

Very well said. I've always felt like the idea that animals require small enclosures to feel secure began as a way to make "exotics" more appealing and easier to sell, and at some point it just became a standard of "good husbandry."
I remember when I first got into keeping R. leachianus geckos and EVERYONE advocated for the use of small enclosures for babies and juveniles, blaming every single issue that a young gecko might have on the size of the enclosure (or the fact that it wasn't kept on paper towels). I, however, have always considered visual barriers and cover to be far more important than the size of the actual enclosure. Whether or not I'm right about that, that belief hasn't seemed to negatively affect any one my animals until now (possibly). I generally only restrict space for my animals when they're in their smallest, most fragile stages of life, and I do so for precisely the reasons you mentioned. Once they're bigger and hardier, I'm more focused on giving them room to move around while feeling secure in the larger area. I'm also of the belief that enrichment (particularly environmental enrichment) is beneficial for captive animals across the board, so long as safety considerations inform the setup. Of course I understand that some people have very large collections that prohibit the use of larger enclosure, and in those cases, using smaller enclosures with little inside makes the most sense... but the mere fact that something is used often does not mean that it is always best.

That said, I am always looking to learn from other keepers with more experience (or even just different experiences), and I'll try anything at this point. While I don't see how simply being placed in a larger enclosure--even in the event that it did stress out the T--could lead to this swift a decline... perhaps there's some other issue with the enclosure that caused it. Perhaps an issue with excessive ventilation and the rate at which her breeder box loses ambient humidity relative to the deli cup she lived in prior to coming home with me? But this isn't a species that seems to require much humidity to begin with... and if they were usually this fragile, I feel like I would be able to find many similar documented cases. But while I know multiple keepers use the same enclosure, I suppose it's possible that my tarantula in particular was accustomed to a certain level of humidity...

Alas. I'm just at a loss. Grasping at straws and trying to be optimistic (which isn't exactly in my nature).

I keep mine in the Small size ExoTerra Breeder Box.

As for someone saying container stresses out exotics, the short answer is "No". They do live in the wild after all. However to be more specific about container size
and husbandry there are 2 factors to consider: prey interactions, and does the animal feel secure in its container.

Smaller containers increase interactions.
Smaller containers don't inherently make an animal feel more secure in my opinion. The same security can be achieved with a well decorated container.

About 5 years ago or so, I was wondering about stress re: container size. I talked to the pioneer/father of modern day exotic herpetoculture (he also kept Ts too) as he recommended small containers.

He said the only 3 three reasons he recommends smaller containers, because they obviously live in the wild (to be fair most animals don't use up the entire space surrounding them).

The 3 reasons were the 2 I gave above, and the 3rd was smaller containers make it easier to check on the animal's heath.

Now if you drop an animal in a large setup with the proper cage furniture, that's a different story.

I don't believe in large size equals stress "theory" at all. I believe it's a throwback from the days of exotic animal importation combined with poor, and often unknown husbandry requirements.

 

[viper69]

Sorry to hear about your troubles =( Unfortunately I don't have any advice to offer myself, but I just wanted to chime in that I also have had issues before getting my mature female to eat. I think she went about 6 months before she finally accepted a cricket again. If I recall correctly I've also heard a person say that theirs basically starved herself to death. So I think this sort of thing may not be that uncommon of an issue with this species.

Hopefully she is able to pull through eventually

How large was your Red, and more importantly how small did the abdomen get? Like the OPs? Mine is not as small yet.

But like the OPs, mine appears to have no interest in water. Certainly none in the crickets.

The odd thing is mine went from a daily average high of 75 to 80-83 and with no interest in eating.

My other Ts the temperature change has not affected them negatively other than MAYBE making them a bit more thirsty , but that could be coincidence. It hasn't been long enough for me to notice regular drinking.

 

[viper69]

Very well said. I've always felt like the idea that animals require small enclosures to feel secure began as a way to make "exotics" more appealing and easier to sell, and at some point it just became a standard of "good husbandry."
I remember when I first got into keeping R. leachianus geckos and EVERYONE advocated for the use of small enclosures for babies and juveniles, blaming every single issue that a young gecko might have on the size of the enclosure (or the fact that it wasn't kept on paper towels). I, however, have always considered visual barriers and cover to be far more important than the size of the actual enclosure. Whether or not I'm right about that, that belief hasn't seemed to negatively affect any one my animals until now (possibly). I generally only restrict space for my animals when they're in their smallest, most fragile stages of life, and I do so for precisely the reasons you mentioned. Once they're bigger and hardier, I'm more focused on giving them room to move around while feeling secure in the larger area. I'm also of the belief that enrichment (particularly environmental enrichment) is beneficial for captive animals across the board, so long as safety considerations inform the setup. Of course I understand that some people have very large collections that prohibit the use of larger enclosure, and in those cases, using smaller enclosures with little inside makes the most sense... but the mere fact that something is used often does not mean that it is always best.

That said, I am always looking to learn from other keepers with more experience (or even just different experiences), and I'll try anything at this point. While I don't see how simply being placed in a larger enclosure--even in the event that it did stress out the T--could lead to this swift a decline... perhaps there's some other issue with the enclosure that caused it. Perhaps an issue with excessive ventilation and the rate at which her breeder box loses ambient humidity relative to the deli cup she lived in prior to coming home with me? But this isn't a species that seems to require much humidity to begin with... and if they were usually this fragile, I feel like I would be able to find many similar documented cases. But while I know multiple keepers use the same enclosure, I suppose it's possible that my tarantula in particular was accustomed to a certain level of humidity...

Alas. I'm just at a loss. Grasping at straws and trying to be optimistic (which isn't exactly in my nature).

Couldn't agree more. Esp on your lizard experience. I remember when that species was slowly being bred. Like many exotics, a lot of trials, and keepers with established "rules" for the proper way.

Sure without paper towel that's what killed them, because you KNOW they are waking on Brawny in the wild!! Hahaha.

I don't believe reds are delicate. They are very hardy. Only thing I noticed with mine is their unusual long time for prey stalking, and a bit picky on prey size. But the crix I offfered were smaller than what mine has easily and readily taken before in the past.

I "know" this move has really changed things for her in some way. That the only thing that has changed. The temperature specifically. The humidity for mine is relatively unchanged compared to where I lived before.

Then again, I've moved before and she had zero problems.

Now the temperatures between those 2 areas were more similar than this recent change.

I can't help but think she feels she's in an unfamiliar place. Though no obvious body language indidcating such.

 

[boina]

I have no real suggestions to contribute to this thread other than to say that I've another AF Euathlus sp. red that has been on a fast for months. Her abdomen doesn't look that bad yet, though. As sad as it is I found this thread kind of reassuring since I've been wrecking my head about what I might do wrong and what I could do differently. Mine is actually in a larger enclosure than I'd usually use with a lot of enrichment because she's so active and I refuse to accept the notion that this may be bad in any way - this 'small bare enclosures are good' seems an absolutely ridiculous concept to me and "stress" is the most overused word in animal husbandry I can think of. Animals in a cage have so much less stress than animals in the wild and btw. a small cage and not being able to move as one likes constitutes an own form of very real stress.

 

[Nmilburn14]

Update: she has refused all food items. Since being placed into the deli cup with a water dish (though I also made her a starter burrow with a small piece of cork bark and placed in some moist sphagnum for humidity), as per the seller's suggestion, and has done nothing but stress curl with her legs bunched around her carapace un between the cork bark and the wall of the deli cup. I unfortunately did have to disturb her once when she dragged the sphagnum into the water dish and it absorbed literally all of the water in it. When I did that, she of course crawled immediately out onto my hand (which is one of the many reasons I hate keeping her in a small deli cup--it's impossible to do minimally-invasive maintenance!)... It's even harder to see her wasting away when she does things like that and shows what a sweet and curious creature she is (although that does anthropomorphize her, I do recognize that she does not harbor the same attachment to me as I do to her). Perhaps I should have left well enough alone, but as the point of placing her in a smaller enclosure was ostensibly to get her more comfortable and rehydrated, it seemed like either decision would have been counterproductive in some way... Since then, though, she's had no disturbances. Her abdomen size remains the same.

The abdomen does not look particularly shriveled to me, but as you saw in the original post, it has certainly decreased in size over the past 3 weeks of her refusing food. Aside from dehydration, I don't know what else could make the abdomen shrink that quickly. Granted, the seller did say that she'd taken a cricket the day before I brought her home, and she took one small pre-killed roach with me 2 days later (the only time she has eaten with me). Is it possible that her abdomen was always this small, but was simply a bit larger due to consuming two meals? In that case, I suppose it would shrink after a bowel movement... I don't believe the size is due to a recent molt, either. I suppose she might not be sporting her full adult coloration at only ~2-2.5", but her setae just don't have the vibrancy I'd expect from a recently-molted T.

Does anyone have any reference photos of shriveled abdomens from T's at any stage of dehydration? Perhaps I'm missing something, and it might be good to have a comparison... and as always, any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Nmilburn14]

So at this point she's been in the 4" deli cup for 2 days, and she has spent the vast majority of that time in a stress curl. I don't know what to do. She would do the same thing in the other enclosure, but that was in between bouts of walking around and trying to climb the walls. I check on her (without touching the enclosure or shel it's resting on) multiple times a day, and she's generally in the exact same spot every time. I don't know if this means she's just getting used to the environment or if this enclosure is stressing her out more than the last. My instinct is to move her back to the other enclosure, but I don't want to cause any more undue stress.

The was a wax worm in there with her that had its head pinched, and it went missing. The substrate remained tamped down and undisturbed, so it didn't burrow... perhaps it dried up and just blends in? Of course I hope that she ate it, but I see no bolus anywhere and her abdomen appears the same size. Granted, the wax worm has no hard exoskeleton, so I don't know if there would be much of a boluses left to begin with... alas.

I can't stop thinking about this. I really hope I don't lose her. I don't know if she's dehydrated or if something else is wrong (nor do I know how she could have become dehydrated with a constant supply of fresh water and areas of damp sphagnum and substrate). I just wish she'd eat something and I knew what the issue was so I could fix it.

 

[Ratmosphere]

Mine too went on a fast. Her abdomen is getting smaller and she won't take food. She use to always come out of the enclosure and walk around when I gave her water. Now she just retreats into her hide.

 

[miss moxie]

Well we're definitely seeing a pattern here then, of Euathlus sp. "red" fasting and losing weight.

The only plus side I can see to the small enclosure is that less movement = less energy expended, the slower her abdomen should shrink.

Maybe try offering another wax worm and see if it goes missing too?

 

[Nmilburn14]

Well we're definitely seeing a pattern here then, of Euathlus sp. "red" fasting and losing weight.

The only plus side I can see to the small enclosure is that less movement = less energy expended, the slower her abdomen should shrink.

Maybe try offering another wax worm and see if it goes missing too?

Definitely. I'm feeling encouraged because I've caught her grooming a couple times. While that's not much to go on, I've never seen a sick (dehydrated) animal engage in that kind of behavior. I'm going. To lay off attempted feeding for a few days to keep stress down, but I'll definitely toss in another wax worm soon.

Odd that we're seeing reports like this! Prior to this thread, every report is seen of fasting in E. sp. red was not accompanied by any kind of weight loss. I wonder if the weather/temperature conditions in which the fasting takes place has anything to do with it. Fasting during winter with cooler temperatures would be accompanied with a slower metabolism, unlike what's currently happening.

 

[spotropaicsav]

"Definitely. I'm feeling encouraged because I've caught her grooming a couple times. "
I agree, encouraging.

 

[Ratmosphere]

Let me start by saying this, my Euathlus sp. red has not had a meal in a month or probably more. I had no interactions with her, only opening the cage to provide food or water. Every attempt to feed her, she would show no interest. Her attitude changed as well, sometimes staying in one place at a time. I am not sure if she is in pre molt either. However, she has been coming out lately and even lets me scoop her up in my hand. Please do not judge me for handling my spider. I personally believe this species actually likes to wander. Keep in mind that I do not do this with any other spider in my collection, only this species. After 3 days of doing this, I offered her an other cricket. I checked the enclosure later on and there is no cricket in sight! I did this again yesterday, and dropped a cricket in her enclosure today. The cricket is nowhere to be found and I could see my T cleaning her mouth parts. Could this species in particular just like interaction or having a variety of places to move around on? And does it correlate with their eating habits? Please do not think I am crazy, it is just an idea.

 

[Nmilburn14]

Let me start by saying this, my Euathlus sp. red has not had a meal in a month or probably more. I had no interactions with her, only opening the cage to provide food or water. Every attempt to feed her, she would show no interest. Her attitude changed as well, sometimes staying in one place at a time. I am not sure if she is in pre molt either. However, she has been coming out lately and even lets me scoop her up in my hand. Please do not judge me for handling my spider. I personally believe this species actually likes to wander. Keep in mind that I do not do this with any other spider in my collection, only this species. After 3 days of doing this, I offered her an other cricket. I checked the enclosure later on and there is no cricket in sight! I did this again yesterday, and dropped a cricket in her enclosure today. The cricket is nowhere to be found and I could see my T cleaning her mouth parts. Could this species in particular just like interaction or having a variety of places to move around on? And does it correlate with their eating habits? Please do not think I am crazy, it is just an idea.

No judgment here regarding handling this species. I'm sure you know the risks associated with handling, so I won't beat a dead horse. I don't handle any of my tarantulas intentionally, but this one always wanders out onto my hand (especially now in this small enclosure where she can be scaling the wall within half a second of my opening the enclosure)... they're definitely wanderers.

If you aren't positive that the T is eating the crickets, I wouldn't keep tossing them in there until you've tried to locate the others and are sure they aren't just hiding in the enclosure... As for the relationship between handling and feeding: knowing what we know about tarantulas, I can't imagine that there would be any kind of positive correlation between handling and eating. It is highly unlikely that any T would *benefit* from handling. Rather, handling will either stress them out (a negative effect) or have no effect at all. I don't think you are crazy, nor do I mean to sound condescending! I do actually believe that environmental enrichment is beneficial to captive animals, but for many animals (T's included), that beneficial enrichment is limited to their enclosure. As long as their environment is safe and thoughtfully set up, I think it's great to have things to climb and explore! But especially in the case of a T that's fasting, I would try to keep potential stress (and regardless of whether or not your T is experiencing stress when handled, you can't really argue that there isn't at least the potential for stress/harm) to a minimum until your T is confirmed to be eating again.

Now for some questions about your T: is this an adult female we're talking about? And has she lost any weight? If she is in fact in premolt, I'd be doubly worried about having feeders in there for long stretches of time.

 

[Ratmosphere]

I'm thinking a sub-adult female, still looks the same since I got her. All of the crickets are in fact gone and she looks fatter. The handling subject only came up because she acts different than all of my other tarantulas so it made me think.

 

[miss moxie]

I've no comment on whether interaction makes them hungry, but I will say both my AF Euathlus sp. "red" and my MM Euathlus sp. "red" purposefully climbed up the enclosure wall and into my hand when I'd open the enclosure. This is a unique trait to the species, something that makes them so endearing to people. I've seen multiple E. sp. "red" owners have the same experience. Whether they are truly interested in exploring, we can only speculate. Either way this was the only T I would handle intentionally and even then only for a few moments to let her wander over my hands a few times before I would set her back in her enclosure for her own safety. Well, before my G. pulchra juvenile female started to do the same thing sometimes. But with her I let her wander onto my hand and then set her back down onto the substrate. I love the way they feel on my hand and watching their spinnerets work-- leaving behind silk as they go. But the safety of my T is more important than that.

It is plausible that your E. sp. "red" @Ratmosphere expended some energy while you interacted with her and it triggered a feeding response to replace the burnt calories. Just spitballing of course.

 

[JoP]

@Nmilburn14 just stumbled on this thread from a while back. Any updates? Did your T make it??

 

[Nmilburn14]

@Nmilburn14 just stumbled on this thread from a while back. Any updates? Did your T make it??

She has made it! She's still as skinny as ever... She did eventually eat, but so far she'll eat one small meal (too small to make for much of a weight gain) every month or so. Not for my lack of trying.

It's sad, because she's such a sweetheart and I still worry about her all the time. She grooms and explores just fine--never really webbing at all, but she's never webbed much... Her favorite thing to do is still dumping out her water dish and hiding in it. She won't use an actual hide, but she loves getting into an empty .5oz cup. I really don't know what to do at this point other than to keep trying and hope her appetite might pick up when the weather warms up a bit (though this all started before winter). If she keeps this up and lives through it, it'll be 10 years before she's big enough to molt!

 

[JoP]

She has made it! She's still as skinny as ever... She did eventually eat, but so far she'll eat one small meal (too small to make for much of a weight gain) every month or so. Not for my lack of trying.

It's sad, because she's such a sweetheart and I still worry about her all the time. She grooms and explores just fine--never really webbing at all, but she's never webbed much... Her favorite thing to do is still dumping out her water dish and hiding in it. She won't use an actual hide, but she loves getting into an empty .5oz cup. I really don't know what to do at this point other than to keep trying and hope her appetite might pick up when the weather warms up a bit (though this all started before winter). If she keeps this up and lives through it, it'll be 10 years before she's big enough to molt!

At least she's still alive! From what I understand, fasting is a pretty common trait of this species (although mine is a pretty regular eater, so maybe I just got an oddball). Have you tried giving her an extra empty cup besides her water dish to use as a hide? Maybe she'd love that.

 

[Nmilburn14]

At least she's still alive! From what I understand, fasting is a pretty common trait of this species (although mine is a pretty regular eater, so maybe I just got an oddball). Have you tried giving her an extra empty cup besides her water dish to use as a hide? Maybe she'd love that.

I haven't, but I've been considering it! It's a little rough with limited space inside the enclosure (I try to avoid rearranging things so I don't stress her out too much), but it'll probably be worth it. I think I will.

 

[JoP]

I haven't, but I've been considering it! It's a little rough with limited space inside the enclosure (I try to avoid rearranging things so I don't stress her out too much), but it'll probably be worth it. I think I will.

Fair. Knowing how Ts are, she'll probably ignore the dry cup and still dump and hide in the water dish, but there's always a chance that maybe she'll take to the new cup and give you a break with having to mess with her upturned dish

 

[Crone Returns]

I haven't, but I've been considering it! It's a little rough with limited space inside the enclosure (I try to avoid rearranging things so I don't stress her out too much), but it'll probably be worth it. I think I will.

Came on this party late, but my AF Hommeoma sp. Red will eat like a pig only if I rip the cricket in half.
Then I put the deceased near her water dish.