Ethics of importation-How to Legally import--ETC.

[DireWolf0384]

Lets look at what we have to work with here. Our Legislators in particular. They will scour the ends of the earth to look for any reason at all to ban something to further their own political agenda. If they can put that on their reelection campaign so they can get another term, they will. I got several letters from my Senators, each saying in a generic prepared email that they basically thought the shipping of Tarantulas was dangerous and that they will keep that in mind when it comes up. If we are not careful with our rights and our Govt, they will ban something we hold dear to us. There is already legislation in progress that will ban the importation of ANY and ALL non-native species. If people don't start giving a damn and getting out there and doing anything they can to get people educated what this means, our hobby itself will be an endangered species or worse, extinct. I went to local pet shops and they looked like I was stupid when I talked about bills like HR669. Its going to hit the US and when it does people are going to look like deer in the headlights. But its going to be way too late.

 

[gromgrom]

That is a good point, brought up many, many times before. We all feel this way. We all want to see it. The problem is, no one can afford to do it really.
When people can buy WC Adult females for $30-$35, you can only get so much
per sling. These need big cages, and that takes room. So if you are hoping to end up not loosing money, or heaven forbid making a little bit, how much room can you use. How much time do you have to do this? I mean, imagine, buying huge amounts of stock, feeders, and working your tail off and then...
money slowly trickles in, but not fast enough... If it's so easy, I got a deal for you. How much room do you have? How much money do you have? You want to breed American Scorpions? Fine. I'll get them for you. You can give me some scorplings. How many Hadrurus can you handle? Because if we can't pump out hundreds of adults every year, we can't keep up with Texas' need. And I would bet, world wide, we'd have to have thousand or thousands of adults. That means we'd need hundreds of them. How much time and money and space do you have???? How many different species do you want? You need a lot of feeders. You have to keep them all clean breeding and all. You think you can do this??? You ready???

It's not so easy. It's really not. Otherwise people would be talking about what they've done, and not what everyone else should do. ;P

Woah hey now I never said I was ready/able to, had the room or anything. I can't say I know what kind of work it takes, but I know it isnt cheap or easy.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Woah hey now I never said I was ready/able to, had the room or anything. I can't say I know what kind of work it takes, but I know it isnt cheap or easy.

LoL, I know grom. That's my point. No one person has the room or time to breed all american scorpions sold. And since it's not real profitable, no one is going to make room and do it all. Most of us can only donate part of our time to charity right? Same goes for selling scorps at a loss or breaking even, or slight profit.

Most people who say, "we should breed them all.....", generally haven't done it yet, or aren't willing to do it. They just think that's what should be done. But they aren't doing it.

Now I want to do it. I love them. I want to breed them all. But I can't. Not unless everyone wants to chip in and rent me a warehouse, pay all my bills, and buy all the cages, feeder colonies, feeder food, heat pads, substrates and give me a stipend of a $1000 month. <-That's post tax minimum wage aprox. So if you can arrange that.... I will breed a ton of them and give them away if you want. I don't mind, I like it. I just have to be able to eat too!!!

They should be being bred. But that means everyone chipping in and breeding one or two species. The real problem is when we get to H. arizonensis. We would need half of AB breeding lots of pairs to maybe make a dent in the collection of them. Since they are sold in Pet Stores, as adults, we would have to raise a lot of the H. arizonensis, H. spadix etc, to adults, and sell them at prices comparable to prices for WC.

See, it's complicated.

P.s. I'm hoping you didn't think my last post was mean. I meant it to be cheeky. You know friendly teasing?

 

[Nomadinexile]

Lets look at what we have to work with here. Our Legislators in particular. They will scour the ends of the earth to look for any reason at all to ban something to further their own political agenda. If they can put that on their reelection campaign so they can get another term, they will. I got several letters from my Senators, each saying in a generic prepared email that they basically thought the shipping of Tarantulas was dangerous and that they will keep that in mind when it comes up. If we are not careful with our rights and our Govt, they will ban something we hold dear to us. There is already legislation in progress that will ban the importation of ANY and ALL non-native species. If people don't start giving a damn and getting out there and doing anything they can to get people educated what this means, our hobby itself will be an endangered species or worse, extinct. I went to local pet shops and they looked like I was stupid when I talked about bills like HR669. Its going to hit the US and when it does people are going to look like deer in the headlights. But its going to be way too late.

Hey DW. True True True. We're living in what Orwell would have called his American Nightmare. Everyone needs to read the 10th Amendment...
I'm going to post it here in a sec.

 

[plo]

Ok, I think I understand the idea of recieving less than seven scorps or maybe cenitpedes. Now for the flip side, can we ship over less than seven with the same luck, and can other countrys recieve them without trouble, and them ship to us without trouble ? Anyone know ?

 

[jayefbe]

Ok, I think I understand the idea of recieving less than seven scorps or maybe cenitpedes. Now for the flip side, can we ship over less than seven with the same luck, and can other countrys recieve them without trouble, and them ship to us without trouble ? Anyone know ?

I've seen people make the 7 or less argument, but it is still very much illegal to receive undocumented and undeclared animals from foreign countries, even if you are receiving 7 or less.

 

[Galapoheros]

As far as breeding goes, I think a simple way to go about breeding is to breed your fav 1 to 5 scorps, sell, trade later. I don't have many sps, 9or 10, but because of getting babies from 5, there are >260 scorpions now. Sounds like a lot but they are easy to take care of. I think I could get by with 2 hours or less a week taking care of them. Sell/trade when they get to an attractive size(easy feeding size) so you don't have to make room for bigger containers, keep some to breed again. Raise your own feeders, real easy once they get going, dubias and Hissers very low maintenance.

 

[Nomadinexile]

I've seen people make the 7 or less argument, but it is still very much illegal to receive undocumented and undeclared animals from foreign countries, even if you are receiving 7 or less.

Yeah, I don't think the poster who put that is wrong or lying. But it seems a stretch to me. Even if technically it's legal,... The law isn't applied that way.
BP or customs will still arrest you. Then you either have a long or expensive court fight, or?!?!

I look at it like this... Our government doesn't follow it's own laws. In fact, I would bet only 1 or 2 senators could even recite the 10th amendment if they had to! And that's the law of the land, the greatest and permanent law, of the Constitution of the United States. Our government doesn't follow laws. We are torturing children all over the world. Literally, admitted, torture of minors, In MANY countries. Our government is out of control. We need to revert to a Republic, ASAP.

But our government IS abusive to many of the world and our country's peoples. We are bombing the world! So regardless of technicality, this law is unjust, and unlawful, and outside the bounds of the LAW of the LAND.

For reference, see the Constitution of the United States. Read the declaration of independence, and the constitution. Then tell me where in there these chumps have the right? We've become a fascist empire. Under democratic rule, it is OUR responsibility to fix that.

Ron Paul for President. States rights Now!

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

 

[Nomadinexile]

Preamble of the Constitution of the United States of America. This is copied verbatem from a free copy of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States, Printed and Distributed free by the Cato institute,copyright 2002, http://www.cato.org/

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.



Now reread, asking yourself along the way, are there ANY parts of this currently being fulfilled by our present government? ANY? Yeah, we have an illegitimate government. They ALL need to go.

Unless you think bombing the world promotes our welfare, or liberty. Or if you think torture and courts and jails built for only the poor promote general welfare and liberty. Domestic Tranquility? How? Giving Billions or Trillions to the richest people in the world because they lied, broke laws, and played the lottery with everyone's houses? How does promote the general welfare? We get taxes and fees and rate increases for everything, bankers get win/win. Our country is messed up. While I don't want to have to fight it in court, or be jailed, I don't think most of our laws are just.

We need a government that will spend it's time erasing laws by the thousands. We need a just country again. We need courts that balance treatment of the rich and poor. And we need leaders who are not bought and sold like stocks. Dems, Reps, they are all corrupt as heck, and need to get out of Washington. We need honesty and integrity in the House, or we will suffer our apathy and foolishness.

 

[reverendsterlin]

TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE
INTERIOR
PART 14--IMPORTATION, EXPORTATION, AND TRANSPORTATION OF WILDLIFE--Table of Contents
Subpart B--Importation and Exportation at Designated Ports
Sec. 14.20 Exceptions by permit.
Wildlife may be imported into or exported from the United States at
any Customs port of entry designated in the terms of a valid permit
issued pursuant to subpart C of this part.
Subpart A--Introduction
Sec. 14.4 What terms do I have to understand?
In addition to definitions contained in part 10 of this subchapter,
in this part:
Accompanying personal baggage means all hand-carried items and all
checked baggage of a person entering into or departing from the United
States.
Commercial means related to the offering for sale or resale,
purchase, trade, barter, or the actual or intended transfer in the
pursuit of gain or profit, of any item of wildlife and includes the use
of any wildlife article as an exhibit for the purpose of soliciting
sales, without regard to quantity or weight. There is a presumption that eight or more similar unused items are for commercial use. The Service or the importer/exporter/owner may rebut this presumption based upon the particular facts and circumstances of each case.
Sec. 14.63 Export declaration requirements.
Except as otherwise provided by the regulations of this subpart, a
completed Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife
(Form 3-177) signed by the exporter, or the exporter's agent, shall be
filed with the Service prior to the export of any wildlife at the port
of exportation as authorized in subpart B of this part.
Sec. 14.64 Exceptions to export declaration requirements.
(b) Except for wildlife requiring a permit pursuant to part 16, 17,
18, 21, or 23 of this subchapter B, a Declaration for the Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife (Form 3-177) does not have to be filed for the exportation of the following:
(1) Wildlife that is not intended for commercial use where the value of such wildlife is under $250;
Sec. 14.91 License requirement.
(a) Prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this subpart, it is
unlawful for any person to engage in business as an importer or exporter
of wildlife without first having obtained a valid import/export license
from the Director.
(b) Definition. As used in this subpart, the phrase engage in
business as an importer or exporter of wildlife means for a person to
devote time, attention, labor, or effort to any activity for gain or
profit that involves the importation or exportation of wildlife whether
or not such person is an importer or exporter within the meaning of the
customs laws of the United States.

Now it seems that once again IF it's not for resale AND it is valued under $250.00 AND you are not considered a commercial importer, the USFW doesn't need to hear from you for T's, Scorpions, and Pedes.

I've seen people make the 7 or less argument, but it is still very much illegal to receive undocumented and undeclared animals from foreign countries, even if you are receiving 7 or less.

so the legal statute in regard to T's and scorps if you are going to make this statment, all of them are available online from government agencies, otherwise from my research you are wrong.

 

[jayefbe]

so the legal statute in regard to T's and scorps if you are going to make this statment, all of them are available online from government agencies, otherwise from my research you are wrong.

What are you talking about? Where did I say that? If you're importing from a foreign country, you need the proper import and export documents which vary from country to country. There's this misconception that if you're receiving 7 or less specimens then these documents are not needed. That is false. If you are traveling between the US and Canada then I believe you can carry on your person a few specimens, but that is the only situation in which this is true.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=72801

http://www.exoticfauna.com/arachnoculture/2/AC-i2a5-p1.html

 

[Nomadinexile]

As far as breeding goes, I think a simple way to go about breeding is to breed your fav 1 to 5 scorps, sell, trade later. I don't have many sps, 9or 10, but because of getting babies from 5, there are >260 scorpions now. Sounds like a lot but they are easy to take care of. I think I could get by with 2 hours or less a week taking care of them. Sell/trade when they get to an attractive size(easy feeding size) so you don't have to make room for bigger containers, keep some to breed again. Raise your own feeders, real easy once they get going, dubias and Hissers very low maintenance.

I think your plan sounds like a good one. However, how do you spend 2 hours per week? I've spent more than that today just changing out my feeder cages! And I'm not done!! (dang lobsters, love them as feeders, but :wall

I would think 2 hours a day average would be closer to reality for most of us! I mean, I feed/check slings every 2 days, 3 max. That would take me 4 hours each time, plus at least 4 a week for feeders. That's 8-12 on my time. And that will be good, when I can get the species I want. That's the hard part. The time spent (besides roach cages, I have 4 of them), is pleasurable. It's getting the right species that's so difficult and/or expensive or even impossible depending.

2 hours? You must be the FLASH!

 

[jayefbe]

Sec. 14.63 Export declaration requirements.
Except as otherwise provided by the regulations of this subpart, a
completed Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife
(Form 3-177) signed by the exporter, or the exporter's agent, shall be
filed with the Service prior to the export of any wildlife at the port
of exportation as authorized in subpart B of this part.
Sec. 14.64 Exceptions to export declaration requirements.
(b) Except for wildlife requiring a permit pursuant to part 16, 17,
18, 21, or 23 of this subchapter B, a Declaration for the Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife (Form 3-177) does not have to be filed for the exportation of the following:
(1) Wildlife that is not intended for commercial use where the value of such wildlife is under $250;
Sec. 14.91 License requirement.
(a) Prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this subpart, it is
unlawful for any person to engage in business as an importer or exporter
of wildlife without first having obtained a valid import/export license
from the Director.
(b) Definition. As used in this subpart, the phrase engage in
business as an importer or exporter of wildlife means for a person to
devote time, attention, labor, or effort to any activity for gain or
profit that involves the importation or exportation of wildlife whether
or not such person is an importer or exporter within the meaning of the
customs laws of the United States.

Now it seems that once again IF it's not for resale AND it is valued under $250.00 AND you are not considered a commercial importer, the USFW doesn't need to hear from you for T's, Scorpions, and Pedes.



so the legal statute in regard to T's and scorps if you are going to make this statment, all of them are available online from government agencies, otherwise from my research you are wrong.

What you are referring to is the EXPORT declaration requirements.

There is a ton of legalese to work through, and the site is extremely slow, but these are the only exceptions to declaring imports I can find:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=50:1.0.1.2.8.6.7.2&idno=50

Nothing about 7 specimens or less, or if not for commercial purposes. It's easy to hide behind seemingly gray areas, but the importation of live animals requires licenses, declaration of importation, and they need to enter the country through a designated port of entry. There are very few exceptions to this rule.

 

[Nomadinexile]

well, irrelevant now.

 

[reverendsterlin]

Now what would be considered commercial, financial gain, etc...

If I am getting them to breed and sell/trade the slings, how does that apply?

I would assume that's fine, but I know what happens when I assume things....

Commercial and financial gain would be importing specifically for resale for profit. If you breed them the offspring are not imports so the rules do not apply. and as it states 8 or more specimens of a single type will be considered commercial but that point can be argued on a case by case basis. This also need to be looked at from the other side, is the person your getting them from a 'commercial dealer', if so they have rules on their shipping, however if both of you are non-commercial entities you at least will be legal, they are subject to the laws of their country. So far all of my over seas dealings have been trades with no money exchange and limited number of specimens, this way I know I am legal on what I send and what I receive. The statute is not specific to what other countries you are receiving from. The USA is a country of specific law not generalities that can be applied to things they are not specific to which is why designer drugs slipped thru for a while until they were specifically included. Just because someone says it is illegal does not make it so, but read what is written in the legal sites and do not interpret, only the court is allowed to interpret the law not the authorities or you.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Commercial and financial gain would be importing specifically for resale for profit. If you breed them the offspring are not imports so the rules do not apply. and as it states 8 or more specimens of a single type will be considered commercial but that point can be argued on a case by case basis. This also need to be looked at from the other side, is the person your getting them from a 'commercial dealer', if so they have rules on their shipping, however if both of you are non-commercial entities you at least will be legal, they are subject to the laws of their country. So far all of my over seas dealings have been trades with no money exchange and limited number of specimens, this way I know I am legal on what I send and what I receive. The statute is not specific to what other countries you are receiving from. The USA is a country of specific law not generalities that can be applied to things they are not specific to which is why designer drugs slipped thru for a while until they were specifically included. Just because someone says it is illegal does not make it so, but read what is written in the legal sites and do not interpret, only the court is allowed to interpret the law not the authorities or you.

I believe you, I really do. But do you have the section of law regarding importation? Personally, I wouldn't worry about 7 scorpions legal or not.
I'd fight them in court on constitutional grounds at very least. I don't think they have the right. I also don't think a jury of my peers would convict me.
Ah, but the joy of courthouses, there isn't justice in ours right now unfortunately.

 

[reverendsterlin]

I believe you, I really do. But do you have the section of law regarding importation? Personally, I wouldn't worry about 7 scorpions legal or not.
I'd fight them in court on constitutional grounds at very least. I don't think they have the right. I also don't think a jury of my peers would convict me.
Ah, but the joy of courthouses, there isn't justice in ours right now unfortunately.

Title 50: Wildlife and Fisheries
PART 14—IMPORTATION, EXPORTATION, AND TRANSPORTATION OF WILDLIFE
Subpart F—Wildlife Declarations


part 14 covers all of it, but you must note that arthropods are not really covered except for marine type which we are not concerned with. I mentioned the + or - 7 specimens just because Ts, scorps, and centipedes are a grey area not mentioned or included in the definition of wildlife, there are other areas like a T egg sac which is also not covered. Most likely it could be argued that between two individuals Ts, scorps, and centipedes traded for other specimens or other things (jeans, sunglasses, ipods lol)are exempt from Title 50 altogether.

 

[Galapoheros]

I think your plan sounds like a good one. However, how do you spend 2 hours per week? I've spent more than that today just changing out my feeder cages! And I'm not done!! (dang lobsters, love them as feeders, but :wall

I would think 2 hours a day average would be closer to reality for most of us! I mean, I feed/check slings every 2 days, 3 max. That would take me 4 hours each time, plus at least 4 a week for feeders. That's 8-12 on my time. And that will be good, when I can get the species I want. That's the hard part. The time spent (besides roach cages, I have 4 of them), is pleasurable. It's getting the right species that's so difficult and/or expensive or even impossible depending.

2 hours? You must be the FLASH!

ewwww, lobsters... I liked them as feeders but seemed a little dirty and climbed, I got rid of them a few years ago, a matter of preference. I have dubias and hissers, the isopods turn everything to cleab smelling dirt, don't smell anything unless one dies, rarely have to clean things in those cages. I spend very little time on having to take care of feeders. Time feeding might have to do with the convenience of the containers, loading a deli with feeders, dropping in feeders as fast as you can pick them up out of a deli. I think people tend to over-feed too.

 

[Nomadinexile]

ewwww, lobsters... I liked them as feeders but seemed a little dirty and climbed, I got rid of them a few years ago, a matter of preference. I have dubias and hissers, the isopods turn everything to cleab smelling dirt, don't smell anything unless one dies, rarely have to clean things in those cages. I spend very little time on having to take care of feeders. Time feeding might have to do with the convenience of the containers, loading a deli with feeders, dropping in feeders as fast as you can pick them up out of a deli. I think people tend to over-feed too.

My lobsters are multiplying like crazy. They have tiny little ones for the smallest slings too! The micro scorps are among my favorites. I will always try and breed at least one specie. And I hate crickets. :evil: Hate Them.
So until I find something better, lobsters are in the rotation. I have dubia and lateralis too. But my lateralis never took off, but the dubia did. A lot of my scorps are not huge fans of the dubia though. I actually need to get more lateralis, I've fed almost all of them.
I have a small, tiny group of hissers. I'm hoping to get them numbered up.
I think I'm going to trade for a larger colony this summer or fall if things go well...

You know, I never thought of putting isos in the roach containers. :?:wall:
Oh, and do you use substrate?

The reason I clean mine so often isn't because they are dirty per se, but there starts to get little spots of poo everywhere, I figure it's not sanitary. Do the isos eat that too?

They are like little vultures for the forest floor! well, doo eating vultures.

 

[Galapoheros]

Yeah the poo spots, didn't like it. Same prob with dubias in that some scorps don't find them easily, depending on the nature of the species. My trans go for them no problem though because of the harder sub so that the roaches don't dig as easily. My fav feeder right now are young hissers. Yip, I have a thin layer of sub for both hissers and dubias, looks and smells like the dirt outside. I may mist once a week, get water from oranges, apples, etc., open top on the dubias though some people have said they have trouble with the weak flying males getting out. I haven't seen that happen over here, I've seen them try, thump, thump, thump, they can't make it to the top.