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Hey that sounds like a post most realistic and not so idealistic, sounds like the real deal to me.
Ethics of importation-How to Legally import--ETC.
- Thread starter Nomadinexile
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nah i disagree with collecting wild scorpions then selling them, breeding the scorpions that you did catch and selling the offspring is where in my position i preferably do it... but then again im just beginning this awesome journey..
the reason i wouldnt sell scorpion caught in the wild is they have the possibility to contain mites and parasites, essentially ripping the other person off. plus what i catch is what i keep for the most part, i do trade, prefer trade than anything else, the same reasons to get scorps from another region and in return the same for other person.
im glad that there is more to it in this hobby and more people involved
it makes it that much more fun
-Tim
the reason i wouldnt sell scorpion caught in the wild is they have the possibility to contain mites and parasites, essentially ripping the other person off. plus what i catch is what i keep for the most part, i do trade, prefer trade than anything else, the same reasons to get scorps from another region and in return the same for other person.
im glad that there is more to it in this hobby and more people involved
it makes it that much more fun
-Tim
Thanks for you comments Tim! I am going to disagree with some of them, or aspects of some of them below, but, It's just friendly debate to me.
And I will apologize ahead of time if I come off like a jerk, sorry, this is not my intention.
First off, what do you mean by not liking when people do it for money?
That could mean a lot of things. For instance, you could mean selling anything for anything. Scorpions, roaches, etc. You buy or collect them, then give away the offspring.
Or, you could mean that you only sell offspring, to help cover expenses.
Or, you could mean that you only sell offspring at reasonable rates.
Or, you could mean...........
Is it okay to cover my expenses? What about food and water? What about gas? What about feeders? Substrate, feeder food, and cages?
Is it okay to make some money for the time I spend? What if I want to breed scorpions for a living?? Is that bad?? It takes a lot of money and work. You should get paid for what you do....
What if I can't breed but can collect? What if I sell what I collect to breeders so that I can keep getting new species out there? Can I pay for food and water with what I sell? I need a new backpack, sleeping bag, water bags, batteries, and heaven forbid a camera, plus rain gear, food, etc......
Can I sell scorpions to pay for camping gear to go hunt scorpions??
What if I become homeless, which is a good possibility, and can't breed? Can I not collect scorpions for other breeders? Why not?
How am I supposed to become a breeder of a species I can't afford? How is me ordering WC scorpions to sell to a breeder, any different than a dealer?
They have the money to buy the license. That's it. Trade protectionism.
That's bull. If they did something better than what I would do, tell me. But they can't check I.d.'s. Maybe they require an I.D. faxed, but who cares. You can fake that with basic printer. You need a hard copy in hand to actually check an I.D. It's just about having money, and that's unfortunate.
As far as life or death experience,... hehehe
Yeah, they can be dangerous. But so can dogs. People sell those or let them loose all the time. It's no more dangerous, for someone without a license, than for someone with. All it is, is a fee. There is no test, there are no requirements, except you promise you read something. That's it. That permit is protectionism and beaurocracy, no more.
I'll have more later, but I need to enjoy this beautiful weather a bit....
If you want to move through the country, you need to learn Spanish. I know an American who went all through there, but he spoke fluent Spanish. Every person there will be hoping to get any dollar you have. They will use the power of their language to manipulate and trick.
However, I'm in full support of your adventure.
However, I'm in full support of your adventure.
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Well, I know some white boys who don't speak a lick, who make it around just fine. I won't hardly have any dollars. I wouldn't stay in hotels or anything like that. I would have money for rice and beans. Maybe get a western union for a food supply if I need it, then western union to buy bus ticket back to the border and bag of granola.
Once poor people realize you are poor too, they tend to want to help you in my experiences. I am a campesino, in many ways. I am rich compared to many in the world, but in America, I am poor. And I will be poor there. I think it's dumb and colonial bull to go around waving dollars and trying to buy your way out of everything. That can make you a target too. My thing would be this. I am broke. I don't have anything but a flashlight and an older used sleeping bag to steal. Maybe some worn clothes. No one is going to pay money for me in the United States. I haven't talked to my family in years and don't even know where they live or their Phone numbers. So what will they get holding me? A pain in the rear, that's what. :razz:
So I think my way is a little risky, and maybe I end up in ditch. But so what? That can happen here too. In fact, in a lot of america, it's more dangerous than much of mexico. The language would help, but it's not a full barrier. If I have no money to take... Plus, if I am just making friends while I'm there,... It won't really matter unless they plant something on me.
But that happens here too. :wall: I've seen it with my own eyes.
So whatever. I think I can get away with walking around MX for a couple of weeks without anything getting too crazy. I don't drink booze. I won't be messing with anyone crazy. I won't have money. And I lived on the street for a decade here. I should live. And if I don't.. That's life. Death comes standard. ;P
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Basic rule is any animal or organism coming into the country, the government wants to know about. Laws vary about what can and cannot come into the country and there are international laws regarding numbers that can be exported and such, but scorpions are pretty much exempt from it any sort of quota as non of them are considered to be in any immediate danger. However, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, pretty much any illegal form of animal shipment can be prosecuted under a very broad law called the Lacy act. Someone asked for a link so if you want a quick overview go to http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm but as I said it is pretty broad in regards to what they can prosecute you for under it. However, violating it can bring a maximum prison sentence of up to 5 years or fines of tens of thousands of dollars. Honestly, in my opinion, and as it was pointed out earlier. The odds of someone intercepting and searching an innocuously labeled standard shipment and finding yours is probably slim, but it is definitely not out of the realm of possibilities, and if they wanted to prosecute you for it, they could. (and as mentioned, I doubt they would "throw the book at you" over a few invertebrates with no real monetary value to speak of). Honestly tarantulas and a handful of other spiders are probably the only inverts that are really worth anything as far as the exotic trade goes in the US at least. As far as scorpions are concerned, there's not really any money to be made compared to reptiles and fish and such, so there really aren't any big smuggling rings ever busted that I know of, or probably even formed in my opinion. It really comes down to how much Fish and Wildlife care, and that's really just guesswork until someone gets caught.
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Ah very nice, it does sounds like you are capable of doing such adventurous tasks. Hopefully the scorpions won't mind your backpack. What are some species you are hoping to observe or collect?
I bet Mexico would be a lot more forgiving than a middle east bug collecting adventure haha. I do contract body guard work on the side for right now, and have a more defensive mindset to other countries based on interesting experiences.
I saw a couple almost get taken in Belize, and that country isn't know for such things. I walked through a mob to buy a coconut, and nothing happened lol. When I was in Mexico, they called me Rambo lol. I bet you have a lot of great stories from many great adventures.
Guys, about all of these topics.. I looked through old topics on many different websites, and it seems like there were many others that were like minded. As far as what we would like to have in our collections, on old price lists I found many of such species. Those that go beyond that.. hmm
I found two Importer/exporter websites. They don't advertise any of the species that we would be looking for, but a custom order would probably take care of that. However, our current dealers will do the same thing for you, for a cost of course. Iunno!
I bet Mexico would be a lot more forgiving than a middle east bug collecting adventure haha. I do contract body guard work on the side for right now, and have a more defensive mindset to other countries based on interesting experiences.
I saw a couple almost get taken in Belize, and that country isn't know for such things. I walked through a mob to buy a coconut, and nothing happened lol. When I was in Mexico, they called me Rambo lol. I bet you have a lot of great stories from many great adventures.
Guys, about all of these topics.. I looked through old topics on many different websites, and it seems like there were many others that were like minded. As far as what we would like to have in our collections, on old price lists I found many of such species. Those that go beyond that.. hmm
I found two Importer/exporter websites. They don't advertise any of the species that we would be looking for, but a custom order would probably take care of that. However, our current dealers will do the same thing for you, for a cost of course. Iunno!
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I wouldn't be backpacking around with any. :?
I won't be collecting, not unless I somehow get permission, or better yet, would be to make a friend into collecting that would trade me small breeding sets of a bunch of species over time.
My main goal for Mx scorpions is the smallest scorpion known currently that I can find about. 1/2" max total length!
I'm too busy to look it up, but it's in another recent thread..Other than that, A big Centruroides, A couple diplos, that would be cool with me. But really, I want that little one....
As far as your suggestion for dealers, the problem here is that they want cash. And they wouldn't give great value to domestic specie trades like a foreign group or company would. I don't have money to pay for an import, and am looking for a way to contribute the scorpion part of a trade....
As far as custom orders, I don't know about that. Would they? If they could get something rare that people obviously want, would they sell them? Or would they keep them to breed? What would they charge for something like that? And how long would that take? Going through an established dealer is a bank breaker and deal breaker for me. I love them for who they are, what they do, and don't think they are charging too much. I just can't afford it. They aren't going to sell P. villous (sp?) for $4 like you could pay to someone in Africa. They would come from the same place too.. :wall:
I have to stay realistic though. I don't have $100 right now. Let alone thousands!
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No, that's his fee. Then there are the government fees. Then the exporter fees. I don't think you can do anything, (minus 7 whatever that's about), without spending a couple of thousand. I really don't think. I'm waiting to hear more. But...
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I do mean this to be friendly. But I am a little offended by this. But I think it is due to your lack of understanding, not ill will. So I will again, for the sake of this thread, reiterate some comments I have shared in the past. And part of this is a reply to this general sentiment, and not just you. So peace, okay?
You are privileged to be able to go collect scorpions. Under your ethical rules, people who live in Minnesota, and don’t have the option to take a scorpion expedition across the desert southwest, are either out of luck, or they can by slings from you! So they can buy slings from you, over multiple lines, that you keep track of right?, so they cannot inbreed? That’s not fair. You might not now agree, but I hope you come to.
I collect and sell wc American scorpions. So you are essentially saying that I am unethical. Well, I disagree. I got one of 17 felonies trying to change the WTO in Seattle in 1999. We were trying and did succeed to make it more friendly to the environment and citizens of developing, and under developed countries. I spent years trying to defend American Wilderness and Endangered Species, Including, but not limited to: Grizzly Bear, Timber Wolves, Golden Eagles, And the American Bison. I have put my life and limb on the line for our Natural world. I’ve herded hundreds of mixed sex and aged bison herds with calves, with them circled up. I would do this on cross country ski’s and snowshoes with one or two people with me. They kill people easily. So I don’t recommend going up to a herd and telling them to move. But I did to save their lives. I saved hundreds if not thousands of the only genetically stable WILD herd of bison left in the United States. I spent 10 days in a Tripod 30 feet off the ground in Sub Zero Temperatures, Trying to save a part of the Largest Continuous Roadless Area in the Lower 48. We won more than we lost there. We saved a lot of WILD. You may care about animals, and the natural world, but so do I. I care as much as anyone. And I’ve got the cut off jail bands to prove it. tbc
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3.This past year, I was the only person in the world that I know of selling 4 or 5 species, and a color morph of another. Not everyone can go down to collect scorpions to breed that have $3-$5 slings. Should these species not be available? You want me to breed them all? And sell slings, which btw, I have sold for $1-$5 of many species this year. But guess what? You end up with hundreds of these. And you can’t sell them all right away unless you sell them for almost nothing. Never mind the fact that a lot of people want adults.... But regardless, I did this. I sold some I collected, and bred a lot of others. It was taking 10 hours a day of work, between feeders, etc. Plus, I was spending $50 a month on food for slings because I didn’t have small enough roaches, nor large enough colonies. So I had to get that. And you are talking $200 in gas to go collect. And substrate. And bottled water. And cork bark. And shipping supplies. I mean, I was working what ANYONE would call a full time job., and LOOSING money. I can bring a ton of new species into the hobby, but not by breeding them all. But other people can breed small groups of them, and keep them around, and no one has to have a full time money loosing job to provide new species of scorpions to everyone. It takes a ton of time, and ton of money, just to go collect them. I’ve done nothing but loose money, so when you say selling them like that’s a bad thing, seems silly to me. I’m glad you’ve got hundreds of dollars for gas, and everything else mentioned above, but I don’t. I collect scorpions because I like being outside, and I love scorpions. Not because I am some kind of greedy unethical jerk. That’s just not the case. .
I care. I’m honest, and decent, and understand ecosystems, and want them ALL to thrive. I am a good man. I have faults, but nothing I can’t look myself in the mirror over. I like who I see in the mirror. I’ve suffered a lot over the years. I’m thirty two. I have some medical problems. But I am honest and decent. I do right. People who know me respect me. I don’t hurt anything if I can stand it. I even take native roaches outside alive. I put a lot of effort, and have given up a lot, to do right, often for others, even at my own expense. I don’t like having my ethics questioned. Especially, when the questions come from someone who has a limited perspective. It will broaden as time goes on. It always does. But understand, I am a moral person. I will not take the “moral low ground”. I stand proud of who I am. You are not better because you only sell slings, you are just in a different position than others, and have the option to collect yourself and build a collection off of it. Many people on here don’t have that option. And I have tried to fix that. It’s tough though. And I am afraid that someday, I will quit doing it, so I don’t have to defend my honor, to people who don’t understand. The hobby looses if I’m not out getting new species in my opinion. And I can’t breed them all. Sorry if you don’t like that. But to that I say, “Get Breeding then”!
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You need to get over the WC=mites and parasites trip. I don’t know exactly where you get this, but it is wrong. First off, if they were that common, collections would drop like flies, but they don’t. Well, a few have, but not a ton. And bad husbandry by a breeder would be more dangerous than my WC. Now if you are talking about emps brought in by the thousands like lobsters, after sitting in a warehouse with thousands of other inverts, well, that’s a different story. Hence why I would like to find a small fry in Europe or something to trade with, than buy from huge importer. But really, not all WC are dirty. I haven’t seen any disease, nor heard of any from any of my customers. Not ONE. So... You can talk about large exporters, but don’t act like me selling 20 scorpions I collected gently in the desert is RIPPING PEOPLE OFF!!! That’s not nice. Nor is it correct.
I hope you are not too flumuxed by my response. I do think you mean no ill will. And neither do I. You obviously aren’t the first person to say something along these lines, but I will fight back against this for as long as I can, and then I will just stop. It takes a lot of time to fight accusations of immorality, unethical behavior, or “ripping people off”. That’s not a joke. And I feel like I have to defend my honor, because really, that's all I have left.
Peace~r- Joined
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please don't generalize.
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This is a good point H.L. I should have addressed it earlier. This is a common theme through many of our discussions on Mexico, and a general American attitude.
Although, I would like to preface for you and others bothered by the focus on crime and danger in Mexico. My family's neigbors growing up, had one of their children, and her new husband, thrown off their balcony on their honeymoon. I got ripped off in Tijuanna. And I have a close friend who almost had to fight 2 police there so they wouldn't drag his girlfriend into the bushes to rape her. And I watch the news. And if you watch any American news, (I also read indy, and world news everyday), all the news we ever hear about Mexico, involves beheadings, or robberies, etc. It's not correct, but forgive us for not knowing better. It's hard to fight through the experiences and the media blitzes.
As for the rest of us, talking like mexico is filled with danger around every corner,... That's not really the case. I have seen murder rates recently, but I know some American cities have higher murder rates. Not all Mexicans are drug smugglers or Gang members. Most of them are just like us. Hard working. Want to have a good life for their family. I've had N. Mexicans share their last meal in their shack with me. There was nothing bad about the way I was treated in North Mexico. FAR FROM IT. Once they realized I was not a tourista, but a campesino, the locals befriended me and a few others I was with. They would come to beach and hang out with us. We didn't have money. We didn't know how we were going back to the U.S. The car was stuck on the beach and we were all broke. A bunch of locals ended up helping push our car 150+ft off the sand we were stuck in. Then, driving back to the U.S., we ran out of gas twice. (I was in a car full of hippies, so...that kind of stuff happened alot :wall: ) Anyway, we had at least a couple people pull over, and chain the car to their truck, and drive us to the next town. One of them even put some gas in when we got there. He was poor too. But like most people around the world, they will help you if they can. In fact on that trip, that car full of hippies was treated better and was safer in Mexico, than we were in America.
The violence and poverty that confounds Mexico right now, stems from two things. Colonization and the FAILED drug war. White people made Mexico what it is today, Not Mexicans. It may have not been your family that did it,... But it wasn't Mexican Families either. First our government economically colonized them. Then we made a war there. The drug war.
And in doing so, we have torn Mexico apart. There is a lot of torture and murder happening there right now. But they are fighting for access to our markets. That's what they are doing it for. They are fighting to sell America Drugs. And trust me, it's not of their making. They are not that wealthy down there, and then we give them this way to make a ton of money...... You can say whatever you want about this. But they aren't the drug users. Some of them will fill the gap to feed their families, but they didn't send the drugs north first. We asked them to first.
But most importantly, this is only a small amount of Mexicans. Most Mexicans are not in a drug gang. Most of them are NOT thieves and murderers. They are people. Just like us. Trying to make a life for themselves on this big spinning crazy rock we call home. Mexico is filled with wonderful kind people. They just don't make the news.
Lets keep it in perspective here. One of the towns I grew up in in Indiana had a higher murder rate back in the day than most of Mexico does now. No one ever warned me about going there!
Don't worry about me in Mexico folks. If you have any info on Laws there, or direct information about not going to a certain place, please share, but let's stay away from comments about whole countries or peoples. Because they tend to be wrong. Maybe not from your perspective, but given a different one, you would see the light.....alright?
Peace~r
Sorry about the generalization. People use language against each other in all countries if they chose too. I've nearly been killed or had to fight in several countries, but that was all over seas. I really like Mexico and Central America. You should get together with one of their countries hobbyist groups haha. That would be fun.
Imagine being in a group of 5 people in a different country, all laughing and jeering. Are they discussing that you are a neat person and are going to be taken to all of their homes for a special home cooked meal? Or are they discussing if you will scream or not when they drag you into the bushes. Sometimes it's good to know.
Imagine being in a group of 5 people in a different country, all laughing and jeering. Are they discussing that you are a neat person and are going to be taken to all of their homes for a special home cooked meal? Or are they discussing if you will scream or not when they drag you into the bushes. Sometimes it's good to know.
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You shouldn't have to speak the language to know.Sorry about the generalization. People use language against each other in all countries if they chose too. I've nearly been killed or had to fight in several countries, but that was all over seas. I really like Mexico and Central America. You should get together with one of their countries hobbyist groups haha. That would be fun.
Imagine being in a group of 5 people in a different country, all laughing and jeering. Are they discussing that you are a neat person and are going to be taken to all of their homes for a special home cooked meal? Or are they discussing if you will scream or not when they drag you into the bushes. Sometimes it's good to know.
On top of that, people do that in English all the time in front of people. They just do it in code. Just because you know the language, doesn't mean you know the code. But if you learn to look through someone's eyes and into their souls, well, you can usually see the code.
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I've been jumped and attacked by multiple attackers in Indiana, Idaho, San Francisco (2x), San diego (2x), and I almost got pimped out in Miami before I realized what was going on. Thankfully, I don't go anywhere without a pocket knife.
Now some of these situations have extraneous circumstances surrounding them, like I was carrying a bunch of cash or hitchhiking, but moral is, trouble can find you, or you can find trouble anywhere.
For example, some of the safest areas of Southern California are actually the most dangerous if you are homeless. There's little punk kids who go around beating or killing them for fun. They go by FTH, or F the homeless. So it's all relative I guess is what I am trying to say...
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Another good point to bring up, is that we need responsible people *trying* to breed and raise H. Arizonesis, Pallidus, etc successfully.
All of these are WC. Although it is very difficult to do, we need people trying. I know I just got my first, and its easily my favorite specie over the flat rock i had and my four emps.
All of these are WC. Although it is very difficult to do, we need people trying. I know I just got my first, and its easily my favorite specie over the flat rock i had and my four emps.
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That is a good point, brought up many, many times before. We all feel this way. We all want to see it. The problem is, no one can afford to do it really.
When people can buy WC Adult females for $30-$35, you can only get so much
per sling. These need big cages, and that takes room. So if you are hoping to end up not loosing money, or heaven forbid making a little bit, how much room can you use. How much time do you have to do this? I mean, imagine, buying huge amounts of stock, feeders, and working your tail off and then...
money slowly trickles in, but not fast enough... If it's so easy, I got a deal for you. How much room do you have? How much money do you have? You want to breed American Scorpions? Fine. I'll get them for you. You can give me some scorplings. How many Hadrurus can you handle? Because if we can't pump out hundreds of adults every year, we can't keep up with Texas' need. And I would bet, world wide, we'd have to have thousand or thousands of adults. That means we'd need hundreds of them. How much time and money and space do you have???? How many different species do you want? You need a lot of feeders. You have to keep them all clean breeding and all. You think you can do this??? You ready???
It's not so easy. It's really not. Otherwise people would be talking about what they've done, and not what everyone else should do. ;P