Ethics of importation-How to Legally import--ETC.

[Nomadinexile]

This topic was brought up in another thread. I wanted to reply, without hijacking someone else's thread. This is my reply.

*This is a friendly debate. I am not involved in activities below, but am only debating them. I disagree with some peoples opinions regarding said activities, and think that there should be a discussion about it. Don't get angry please, thanks.

So I have a lot of thoughts about this, this is the first of several, long winded posts I will make regarding this. It is a more complicated subject than many people seem to think, and I would like to be able to be somewhat thorough, as the topic needs it, to even begin to have a basic understanding. I may twist and wind in and out of what seems direct commentary to you, nevertheless, I assure you it is relevant. Bear with me.

1. Background-Current Affairs-
We live in a crazy world. We have soldiers in over 180 countries. We dropped more bombs in the last decade, than we did in WW1 and WW2 combined. There are more slaves in the world than in any time in human history. The level of barbary in some parts of the world right now, can not be matched in known human history. There is starvation on massive scales we can't begin to understand. The suffering the world knows right now tears at anyone who dares to look. On top of that, look at what is legal... Booze, cigarettes. 300watt subwoofers in people's cars. Dumping chemicals into our air, water, and soil. Weather manipulation, the desertification of entire regions. The taking of farms because an unwanted genetically modified seed flew onto your land cross-pollinating your ORGANIC crops rendering them almost worthless, and you are the thief for stealing their genetics!!! lol. Companies get your children's blood samples when they are born, and look for anonamalies they can PATENT!!
Unneeded dna manipulating mercury filled vaccines are shoved in children's arms by untrained unknowledgable nurses that can't bother to disperse the mercury in 10 shot vials!

So before anyone blows a fuse reading this, keep in mind the world we live in. Put violating a paper work/fee law that is unconstitutional to begin with, where it belongs. There is much more coming, but my posts will be too long if I don't separate this.... So hold on...

 

[Nomadinexile]

2. Current state of importations
This is a big one when I look at some statements made on here regarding illegal imports. I tend to think that people who get upset, are trying to protect their investment in legal imports, not caring for animals.. why?

Because just about any one who is honest with you will tell you that the animal trade is one of brutality as often as not. You would be abhorred at the treatment and conditions of animals exported on a mass scale. It's disgusting often. (Not all companies/exports are like this, but it is all to common we know)

Never mind the fact, that these same animals were not ethically collected. These people aren't taking 10% (Like I do when I collect, If 10%!!) These companies are trying to make money. Most of them take dang near everything, often including plants, reptiles, fish, whatever is worth a buck...

Now compare that to someone on here ordering from germany.....
Captive bred, well cared for animals, not ripped along with everything from it's home....
Treated with kid gloves and shipped with heat pack to someones doorstep. Not in a crate in a cargo plane crammed in without heat....

THere is no comparison. Why should someone have to pay $4000 to order this species of scorpion, and have to do it from a jerky earth abuser to top it off?

Many of our founding fathers, many, just pick up a book for god's sake, said things like, if a law is unjust, you have a right,no a responsibility, to resist it. If you are one of those the law is the law, no matter how screwed up, well, you are probably pretty hopeless to begin with. I want truth, justice, and the rights of man....

To be continued.

 

[Nomadinexile]

3. The Options

So, I don't do this. Because I am risk aversive right now. I don't want to have to go to court. I can't afford a fine. However, as a hypothetical, lets look at my own situation, and talk about my options.

I ethically collect wild scorpions. I only take a few from any given spot, and literally, ever square mile, take only a minute percentage of a population. Were talking fraction of a percent. Even being so ethical, I still can find plenty over a couple of nights to have a breeding set, and a handful left that I could trade for something we don't have here. There is a hobbyist in Europe I am sure, that would love to trade something really cool that we don't have here for they don't have there. He has captive bred whatever, and I have a handful of ethically wild caught. That would be a no harm no foul transaction. That shouldn't be illegal. That's not what the law is meant to stop. And it doesn't do anything but prevent me from getting a cool new specie.

My other option is to try and do a legal import. I would love to have someone give a link to a thorough discussion on this, or add a how-to guide to doing this. As I understand it, I would have to sell one of my kidneys on the black market to afford it. We are talking thousands of dollars. I don't have thousands of dollars. Heck, I don't have a hundred dollars. But I could come up with $50 for shipping. But a thousand??? Sorry, but I'm not balling like that. If someone is, by all means, do it up. I will assist you where I can... But dang, they made it impossible. You shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars to trade 5 or 10 scorpions. That's bull, and you can't deny that.

My other option, is to wait for one of these people with cash flow to do it, then I have to come up with hundreds of dollars for a couple of pairs. This law is elitist. You only get to have cool or rarer species if you are wealthy.
I would understand it, if you are talking about something that took 2000 hours of man labor to expertly hone.... But you are just talking about a barrier of law, that prevents poor people like me, from owning a species. Not for any other reason, than I don't have a ton of money. That's junk.
TBC

 

[jayefbe]

Illegal imports upset me because they will do nothing but place a stigma upon the hobby. If we want to be able to continue to import legally, illegal imports are not going to help.

 

[Nomadinexile]

4. The Ethics of Right

Benjamin Franklin
"Must a citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? … It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right."


I find the large scale importation of animals, to be unpalatable. I know, deep down in my heart, that it would be much more ethical for me, to trade with a collector in Yemen, than to buy from a large scale dollar collector. I know, that buying from, and trading with, scorpion enthusiasts, is much more right, than buying from someone who thinks scorpions are bugs, and has nothing but distaste for them? Who throws them in bags gently enough only to limit the damage they do to the product, irregardless of its welfare??

That is an obnoxious and brutal thing to have to deal with. I don't want to have to see animal abuse delivered to my doorstep to have a new specimen.
I want someone on here on vacation to collect 4 or 10 for me, and kindly send them on their way....

You know what I'm saying here? This law demands animal abuse. That is unjust. Well, it doesn't explicitly demand it, but it certainly prevents the cost effective forms of circumnavigation, therefor, demanding it under current statutory law. That's whack.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Illegal imports upset me because they will do nothing but place a stigma upon the hobby. If we want to be able to continue to import legally, illegal imports are not going to help.

Why do you think that? I disagree. The absolute flouting of a law, shows that

A. there is no consent of the governed.
B. that it is common law
C. the government needs to make a way to make the above legal
D. or they are fighting the populace and ruling unjustly and should be thrown out.

 

[gromgrom]

a big problem is the emperors getting imported
i hope to make a monopoly on the LPS in columbus here by selling them captive born babies at a reduced price, to put a stop to demand on imports.

and if my research was correct, 33-60% of all wild caught scorps and spiders carry nematodes. this could be a good way to stop that from happening further.

 

[BeakerTheMighty]

If someone gets caught smuggling animals they're in pretty big trouble though. Smuggling them into the country is a federal offense that violates the Lacey act. It is actively investigated by the U.S. dept of fish and wildlife and is a felony. and I really do mean actively investigated (they regularly check mail coming in to the US, and have undercover agents who sometimes conduct sting operations). I have heard of people continuing to have the purchased animals show up at their house while unbeknownst to them fish and wildlife waited and documented each one simply to build a larger case against them after intercepting). I dunno if you'd be in huge trouble for scorps compared to some people who get arrested trying to ship in endangered species and that sort of thing, but they do arrest people for this exact sort of thing, though more often it is with reptiles. Risk simply isn't worth it imo. Also, there have been groups arrested who's sole purpose was smuggling animals to Germany from developing nations where they were then sold them off the to U.S. so, ordering abroad doesn't always guarantee anything in terms of an animal or who collected it. Also, cool thing about scorpions: all of them to my knowledge can be legally imported and last time I checked only 3 species are Cites listed (emps and 2 other Pandinus sp.) and they can still be imported with some paperwork. I personally would just pay the fee to have someone export it legally, there are companies that will do that for you, last time I checked I was quoted at $50 a scorp from Germany to U.S. to complete entire process. This is definitely pricey and to each their own but I would rather pay it than do prison time in the case it got intercepted, even if it is unlikely. Just my two cents.

 

[AzJohn]

Illegally imported animals hurt domestic breeders and legal importers. Why would an importer bring in rare species when they can be undercut by some one bringing the same species in at a much lower over head. This is a real problem if the animals being smuggled in are then being sold at half the legal importers price. The same goes for breeding. I have a few rare species that I have worked very hard to obtain from US collections. In order to break even I need to make so much money per brood. I'm not even trying to get rich. I just want my hobby to pay for itself. I see a few species that I spent hundreds trying to get being made available for very little.

I'm not such a hypocrite that I'll say I'm possitive that all my scorpions came into the country legally. I never smuggled anything in but I've done a lot of trades for rarer species. I can't say that they were all brought in legally. I don't think any one with rare species can say that 100%. Many rare species in the US are offspring of smuggled scorpions.

What we really need in the US is a active community of breeders. Take the recent thread on H swammerdami. That species was in the US a few years ago. Where is it now? No one got enough to breed. As breeders we should try and support each other with our efforts in breeding. People buying one or two of a rare species aren't establishing a strong breeding colony, and rare species are at risk of disapearing in the US. Plus if enough breeders get together we could possibly bring scorpions in legally. It might be to expensive for one person to do alone.


John

 

[Cowin8579]

Great posts. I know more about the reptile hobby than I do the invert. When you go to a reptile show, there are the breeders, and then you have the people with 10x of several species that were imported/WC. Wild caught is a dirty word in the reptile business because unless it is an extremely hardy species, most die. How the hobby has survived, is breeding wild caught animals.. and then not further relying on those same wild caught animals.

We we know, there are roughly three large invert dealers that have a reasonably large selection of species depending on your opinion or view point, that they acquire by different means (such as importing). I suspect they do far less trading than in the reptile business. However, it is done. (this is a good thing)

The hobbyist doesn't know as much as the dealers do about these things, and what is possible. I support and respect them for existing. That isn't the issue though.

Even captive bred vs captive bred, US to wherever. Non Cites listed. We have certain species, and they have certain species. We have bred them to large numbers, and are now selling for for a few $ a sling. No value. A trade would be awesome.

Is it possible to even change the law? I have a meager income at the moment, and going to college full time. I'm also hoping to find a way to make things happen just like you are regarding setting up an import/export thing and establish different species. That is our common goal.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Here's some problems with what is being said though.... Whoever said $50 a scorpion, I think that is if you order 1000! Heck, priced in Euros, a lot of European held species would hardly be affordable themselves for us! I've seen a lot of European sales with what would be over $100 scorpions, after the exchange rate.

John, that's the best argument I've heard yet. Except you have to admit, that it is somewhat classist. I should be able to trade my scorpions with a german just as much as you can buy them by permit. The fact that I don't have a bunch of money, shouldn't prevent me from exploring my world and my hobby, and being able to get some rarer species. It just means, like everything else, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. NOT that having some rare scorpions means you are rich, but that's still richer than me. I don't know if I'll ever be able to buy a couple hundred dollars worth of 2-4 scorpions. But I can collect and trade. But I have to collect a thousand local scorpions to trade for a few rarer ones. I won't do that.
Plus, it would take forever to do right. But yeah, I see you wanting to protect your investment. But it's artificial scarcity. And in the world we live in, where you can buy anything online, from pharmecueticals and joints, to actually living people, you won't stop it like that. There should still be a way for me to get 10. If you aren't importing to sell, but to breed, you shouldn't be in violation of law. IN FACT, I think under the WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION, you could fight the feds, because they are unlawfully interupting legal commerce, in violation of WTO rules, which, believe it or not, overrule U.S. Law. This would not apply to endangered species, but as stated above, that's not an issue for scorpions.

 

[Nomadinexile]

\
and if my research was correct, 33-60% of all wild caught scorps and spiders carry nematodes. this could be a good way to stop that from happening further.

I don't think this could be correct. Or everyone would have nematode infested arachnids. There are not that many cases, to allow for that kind of percent....

 

[Nomadinexile]

Can you give us a link to the Lacy Act Please?
Yeah, endangered species are a little different.
You don't even know what the risk is. :wall: But if it's too risky for you, by all means, I'm not asking you to do it. I don't care.
Yeah, but buying from germany, will almost always get you better shipping, and an animal that is healthy and fed. Glad you can afford $50 scorpions to start breeding groups. I might be able to get 2. But then shipping....hehe
NO WAY. These importers get this stuff for nothing in the home countries. I mean $3 a scorpion in most countries. Some body needs cut out of the chain if they can't cut their profit margin's imo.
I don't think any first time scorpion importer, getting 10-15 non endangered scorpions is going to get prison time. You may get a fine that you can fight in court on legal grounds. That isn't worth it for them. Different if you are dealing though. I think they might take them and leave it at that. That's what they do with Marijuanna seeds they find. They send you a letter saying,"come and get em at our office if you want", and if you don't go, that's the end of it. I don't think they are as crazy about as you think,.. Maybe I'm wrong.... Tell me about scorpion cases. By hobbyists. Non endangered. Small numbers. Any cases we know about?!

 

[Nomadinexile]

Great posts. I know more about the reptile hobby than I do the invert. When you go to a reptile show, there are the breeders, and then you have the people with 10x of several species that were imported/WC. Wild caught is a dirty word in the reptile business because unless it is an extremely hardy species, most die. How the hobby has survived, is breeding wild caught animals.. and then not further relying on those same wild caught animals.

We we know, there are roughly three large invert dealers that have a reasonably large selection of species depending on your opinion or view point, that they acquire by different means (such as importing). I suspect they do far less trading than in the reptile business. However, it is done. (this is a good thing)

The hobbyist doesn't know as much as the dealers do about these things, and what is possible. I support and respect them for existing. That isn't the issue though.

Even captive bred vs captive bred, US to wherever. Non Cites listed. We have certain species, and they have certain species. We have bred them to large numbers, and are now selling for for a few $ a sling. No value. A trade would be awesome.

Is it possible to even change the law? I have a meager income at the moment, and going to college full time. I'm also hoping to find a way to make things happen just like you are regarding setting up an import/export thing and establish different species. That is our common goal.

Same goes for arachnids. But I wouldn't hold the reptile industry up, they've
been horrible! Plus, they have higher rates of disease and death shipping. There are more and more specific rules governing them too. But you are talking about scorpions that aren't available at all, or for extremely inflated rates, but mostly just not available. This is much different than importing common species. I'm not proposing that. No one is!

I'm glad the dealers exist too. I wouldn't have much if it weren't for them. But their selections aren't extensive. Nor are rare species reasonably priced. Not for me. I don't want to compete with them. I'm never going to have an enormous collection. But I want some specific species, that I could trade for, that aren't for sale, and a few that are a fortune. They should charge what they want, and do what they want, but I can't afford breeding groups of anything rare or exotic. But I can trade with someone who in their home country think the scorpions are common, and who to them, mine are rare!! Why shouldn't I be able to do that? That's not going to hurt the dealers, because I can't afford to buy theirs anyway!!! And I won't be selling very many slings, because I wouldn't have a ton of adults. Plus, they aren't selling a lot of these anyway! So I don't see how that can't co-exist.

 

[Nomadinexile]

And back to a bunch of us chipping in...

Again, that assumes we have a bunch of money to chip in. You are talking $1000 EACH between 5 of us to cover the paperwork the best I can tell.

If you have a THOUSAND dollars laying around to invest in scorpions, by all means. I'll buy some from you when you get yours.... But I'm in NO position to pay for even part of an import. I'm thinking along the lines more of doing trades. It's the only way I could do it. And that fact alone makes it constitutionally legal. Again, endangered species are different. Those laws are legal because they are protection a species. A trade being illegal only protects the Investor class from having competition, because you have to be one of them to play. That is illegal, and unamerican imo.

 

[Galapoheros]

I don't think people are agreeing with the import/export laws, just that it's not worth the risk of doing it illegally, for most anyway, a matter of opinion. The only way I see it hurting the hobby is the same as AZjohn mentioned. Seems they would only increase fines when illegally imported the more it happened since they are not illegal to import so I don't see that it hurts the hobby in a "legal" sense. It's people that do it legally that can't stand people doing it illegally. "classist", could be but that's the way they do it whether it's right or wrong, but maybe the difficulty of importing keeps too many from doing it. Maybe too many doing it illegally would cause too much over collecting in the wild. It'd make sense to be able to trade easier between diff countries with CBs, too bad they don't pay attention to details like that in regulations, they pay attention to details that make "them" a lot of money. It does suck.

 

[Nomadinexile]

I don't think people are agreeing with the import/export laws, just that it's not worth the risk of doing it illegally, for most anyway, a matter of opinion. The only way I see it hurting the hobby is the same as AZjohn mentioned. Seems they would only increase fines when illegally imported the more it happened since they are not illegal to import so I don't see that it hurts the hobby in a "legal" sense. It's people that do it legally that can't stand people doing it illegally. "classist", could be but that's the way they do it whether it's right or wrong, but maybe the difficulty of importing keeps too many from doing it. Maybe too many doing it illegally would cause too much over collecting in the wild. It'd make sense to be able to trade easier between diff countries with CBs, too bad they don't pay attention to details like that in regulations, they pay attention to details that make "them" a lot of money. It does suck.

I don't think most people are agreeing with them. Some do though. Thing is, I don't know of any cases of people getting caught to make any knowledgeable decision on how risky it is. I think that applies to most of us.
It shouldn't cause over collecting in the wild. We are talking about trading small numbers here. And with most species, a few breeders could supply the country with them. So the only problem I see is not enough people breeding. Again, if I could get $10 slings, which most species would be if there were enough breeders, we don't have a problem... But many, I can't even get from dealer if I could afford them! (they wouldn't be $10 either) And they don't have most species.
So people need to get breeding, before the world government locks stuff down so hard and we can't get squat without scanning our barcoded foreheads...

There's way too many cool species not available...

 

[Nomadinexile]

I do want to reiterate one point, so it doesn't get lost in the never...

I think it's a great idea for people on here to group up and legally import groups or rare species. There are many possible pitfalls to this, make sure it is the most trusted amongst you that is in charge of money and distribution.

This is a great idea. There are lots of really cool, and rare species that could be legally imported. I am fully supportive of any effort to do this. If anyone wants my opinion on species to go for, and you are really serious about it, contact me through my email and I will be glad to give you ideas.

*Also, I want to reiterate, that I don't have the money to do this. I have money for shipping. That's about it. I would think, going in Fivesy's, that you would spend $1000 on the permit, and then you would want to spend another $1000 on shipping and specimens. This should be about 100-200 scorpions, that you could spread across 10 species maybe. That would be banging. But it would be $2000!

You could go with 10 people, at $1000. Or 20 at $500. But that's lot's more issues and possible problems than anyone would want to deal with!!! Plus, then you have to find 10 or 20 people, who have 500-1000 laying around, that they want to send to you, so that in a couple of weeks, they may get some really cool scorpions. But what happens to a group of 20 people who get ripped off, or instead get a bunch of common species rather than the rare awesome ones they thought they were getting. I'm not trying to go through all that. That could get nutty really quick.

I'd rather just do a small trade with someone like me who collects them themselves ethically, and loves them for what they are, not as a dollar sign....Or someone breeding them already would be better yet.....

We shouldn't have to buy Wild Caught when there are Captive bred out there..

[

 

[AzJohn]

I do believe that rare species aren't for every one. Again look at swammerdami. To many people bought them because they wanted the biggest scorpion in the world. Not enough people bought them in order to breed them. I've past on some of the nicest tarantulas out their. In part because I felt that they should go to proven breeders first. I know that that is not how the buisness end of the hobby works usually. If you have the money you can buy one swammerdami, with on intention in breeding. If that species went to breeders then we'd have a steady population available for the more casual hobbiest. That might be an classist attitude but I really feel that way. In the long term breeders getting the rare stuff first is good for everyone.

By pulling our resources we might be able to get some nice stuff into the US legally. For the expressed purpose of breeding stock. I don't think it would cost $1000 per person either. A lot of deals could be done via trade. I've ssen Hadrurus scorpions selling for 80 eros. Our native tarantulas aren't supper common either. I've bred three A schmidti this last Summer. Two look like they are going to explode. That could be close to 600 babies. I'd love to get $600 credit for CB scorpions from a European. That would leave just the licence, inspection fees, and shipping. That might be less than $1000 total. People with out a lot of cash could supply the livestock to trade. All we'd need is a licence or a importer willing to deal with that stuff for me.

Any ways that's just wishful thinking right now for me.

John

 

[Galapoheros]

"were talking about small numbers here", but they don't take the time to find a way to regulate that way so a lot of people trying to make $ off them would prob order a lot from other countries, WC. Well, thinking about it more, I honesty don't think the fines are that bad for illegally importing inverts that are legal to import. I actually think that even if packages get opened during shipping and the illegally imported inverts that are legal to import are looked at, they probably make a judgment call on the spot and I think they usually wrap the box back up and blow it off. I have talked to a couple of people that had that experience with a note left on the package, they didn't try it again. You can always be made an example of though.