Eternal sub adults

[Olsin]

Hey guys .. I guess we've all experienced sub adult scorps that for one reason or another either remain sub adult for ages and then simply die before becoming adult or who remain sub adult for an amount of time that exceeds radically what we had expected.
Michiel mentioned the other day a sub adult R. bonetti he has in his possession that is showing this trait while i also have a sub adult R.garridoi female that has been sub adult for almost 8 months and it's got me wondering. Does anyone out there has any kind of explanation for this type of behaviour or has anyone tried various remedies and found one that worked?

For my part i've tried extra humidity/decreased humidity, periods of increased warmth/coolness plus i've even tried relocating to another area of my scorp room so that they receive light from a different direction .. all to no avail.

Could it be environmental or genetic or maybe something totally different? .. Your views and ideas would be interesting to hear.

 

[2nscorpx]

I think that this is one of those things were an explanation is not clear any way...of course as you said you have been experimenting, but perhaps that is all that can be done. I have heard that many others have a similar problem with R. bonetti, and before with R. pintoi...sorry I cannot give real help.

 

[Olsin]

I think that this is one of those things were an explanation is not clear any way

I agree with you Tuhin although i was speculating more along the lines of a discussion rather than a recipe for success. My own observations regarding this are that lower instar moulting seems to be less problematic. The problem seems to arise mostly during the last moult to adult and with that in mind i was wondering if final moult parameters are either slightly different or more acute insomuch that everything has to be spot on before a scorp (of some species) will moult to adult. I was also wondering if a kind of "hiccup" occurs that somehow affects the scorpions metabolic processes. The fact that some scorpions actually die (for no outwardly apparent reason) during the sub adult period after a long long period of pre moult suggests to me that there is, in some circumstances, some kind of physiological damage at play. They don't just die because they want to!

As a final (unless during discussion other ideas surface) experiment i've now changed the substrate of my SA garridoi female and relocated her enclosure to the darkest area of my scorp room, away from the area that sees the most activity. I've refilled her drinking bowl and placed thick polystyrene at the bottom and around the sides of her enclosure in an attempt to minimise as much as possible any vibrational disturbances. I plan to leave her totally alone for the next few weeks or so to see if this could induce a moult. My thoughts behind this are simply that maybe not only environmental parameters have to be spot on but that the scorp also has to feel totally secure and threat free. Although i admit, this is a shot in the dark. I had another garridoi female that moulted to adult after only 4 months as sub adult and there was no problems there. Both females were fed and treated exactly the same and their enclosures were also right next to each other so heat and light would have been more or less identical...Still, i've got to try something.

 

[2nscorpx]

As I don't keep either species I can't help there, but there are several species now (R. bonetti, R. pintoi, R. garridoi, T. bastosi, T. clathratus, and H. arizonensis) that have a difficult last or last few moltings. On the other hand, there are species that have a lot of trouble in earlier instars. It's not directly relevant, but is there something in the locality of scorpions in nature that makes it easier to molt? I know you have probably wondering about microhabitat conditions in nature, but anyone know about microconditions of R. garridoi and bonetti in nature?
You have tried fluctuation in temperatures and humidity, what time of year were these? Good luck with your previous trial.

 

[KDiiX]

[...] enclosure in an attempt to minimise as much as possible any vibrational disturbances. I plan to leave her totally alone for the next few weeks or so to see if this could induce a moult. My thoughts behind this are simply that maybe not only environmental parameters have to be spot on but that the scorp also has to feel totally secure and threat free. Although i admit, this is a shot in the dark. I had another garridoi female that moulted to adult after only 4 months as sub adult and there was no problems there. Both females were fed and treated exactly the same and their enclosures were also right next to each other so heat and light would have been more or less identical...Still, i've got to try something.

That's exactly what I told you in a other thread, when I told you that minimization of disturbance increases chances of molting. Some scorpion sp. might be more sensible in pre moult then others. It also might be that some species are more sensible to the right parameters. For example I know from an A.australis which was almost 12 month subadult because temperature was to low. When the temperature was raised to optimal temperature it took two week and it molted.
It also might be that theire "biological clock " is confused by changes in the weather between habitat and captivity. At my scorpion I noticed that I have much more molds in summer than winter.

 

[Olsin]

My point in the other thread was that all vibrations are not equaled to disturbance which is what you was getting at .. Still, having said that i'm not blind to the fact that some low key disturbances might be experienced as stressful. It's a fine line.
With regards to my sub adult garridoi, i can't equate disturbances to problems with moulting because as i mentioned i had another garridoi SA female that moulted just fine plus 2 SA males that also moulted just fine to adult...However i might concede that this particular garridoi is for whatever reason, unlike the others. Rhopalurus garridoi as a specie is generally not particularly sensitive to finely tuned environmental parameters to moult successfully.

Your biological clock reference might be applicable if they were wild caught specimens, but they weren't...All 4 came from the same brood of captive bred specimens.
What puzzles me though is the fact that the other 3 garridoi moulted to adult just fine while this last one has halted for some reason. All my garridoi received the same environmental factors and feeding regimes but for some reason one of them has steered from the path...It was through discussion of the subject that i had hoped to receive possible reasons for it.

 

[Galapoheros]

I don't have experience with any of those sps but I've raised the majority of scorpion broods I've had over here. To me it's obvious that it's at least partly genetic. I've seen some blow through their instars at around 3X faster than the rest. With a P. imperator brood I have, one matured in year while the others are going on 3 years, may take 4 years for some. With a transavaalicus brood, some are so slow growing and small compared to the rest that it might be hard to convince somebody else they are from the same brood. The ones that blow through the molts end up being smaller in general also, same environmentals, in delis next to each other. It terrs I don't try to distribute the same environmental factors evenly over the whole terr. I may put a heat mat on one side, keep a corner moist, things like that, they know where to go.

 

[Olsin]

To me it's obvious that it's at least partly genetic.

I hear you there .. I've had the same thoughts. Just recently i've had a H.jayakari female that went from instar 5 to sub adult in 1 month! while the others from the same brood are still at instar 4 and 5 with no signs whatsoever of pre moult amongst them.
So, if it is genetic then that would also suggest that i'm basically doing nothing wrong and that she will moult in her own good time. I just hope that is the case and that she doesn't just end up dying .. One of those "time will tell" moments i guess.

 

[Michiel]

Olsin,

in your R.garridoi it seems like an exception. R.garrido can reach maturity as fast as six months when constantly kept in the high end of the ideal temp range and fed twice a week. I have raised many specimens without any eternal subadults...I wish I could say that with R.bonettii...

 

[KDiiX]

Your biological clock reference might be applicable if they were wild caught specimens, but they weren't...All 4 came from the same brood of captive bred specimens.
What puzzles me though is the fact that the other 3 garridoi moulted to adult just fine while this last one has halted for some reason. All my garridoi received the same environmental factors and feeding regimes but for some reason one of them has steered from the path...It was through discussion of the subject that i had hoped to receive possible reasons for it.

Not only wildcaughts are very sensitive to weather changes etc. As I said my scorpions (almost all cb are in winter less active in molting and even taking food) if it is because they suppose a other climate or because they just take a kind of winterrest which slows down their activity.
From my view its often hard to tell why a scorpion takes longer to molt then others. Their existing just to many possible reason for such behavior....

 

[Olsin]

Not only wildcaughts are very sensitive to weather changes etc. As I said my scorpions (almost all cb are in winter less active in molting and even taking food) if it is because they suppose a other climate or because they just take a kind of winterrest which slows down their activity..

Ah, i see .. I differentiate between weather changes and biological clocks. A weather change is just that, a change in the weather, while a biological clock for me is an inherent genetic property as in their biology tells them it's winter and not the weather.
I experience much the same during winter with fewer moults and less feeding activity and i would imagine most other people do as well unless their scorp area's are insulated so well that winter cold and hard cold winds have no impact whatsoever. However i don't think that's the reason for my garridoi's lack of moult.

@Michiel .. agreed, i'm also in the belief that my garridoi is an exception. For example those 2 garridoi's i received of you a few months back are now both sub adult and feeding well. I foresee that they'll both become adult within the next couple of months. Incidentally, it turns out they are 1.1 so that was a pleasant surprise . I'll be mating the female with another male i have and the male will be able to mate with my SA female "when" she eventually moults. That way i can cross breed them without the young coming from "brother and sister".