Dyskenetic Syndrome - A Complete Record of an Outbreak

[reverendsterlin]

Sorry for your losses 6string, I would post the sellers name here on this thread not for accusation but because this thread will be the most viewed. I hope any other buyers will also post here should this problem spread to them so we know there is an ongoing problem and not an isolated case, hopefully stop any further spread. I haven't been here for a while but do remember someone that was taking deceased inverts for a study on some form of bacterial(?) deaths and would suggest saving your passed pets for inspection should that person or another be able to perform a necropsy to determine cause of death. I really hope you suffer no more losses as well as hope that once your sure this disaster has run it's course some members step up to help you rebuild your collection at a minimal cost (ongoing full documentation may help encourage them). I know I personally will be following this thread (and any related thread that should be included here). As many unknown death causes are occurring in the wild I strongly support studies that can help us keep problems out of the collector aspect of the hobby. Again my condolences.
Rev

 

[Flying]

Perhaps it is different in Belgium but in the states Front line is used as a flea and tick repellent for dogs and cats perhaps it is the same And I just misunderstood either way it believe it could be the source

It is actually used as flea and tick repellent for dogs and cats but also to repell bloodmites and such from reptiles like snakes. If you want to take the test then spray some on your hands before caring for your tarantulas. I can tell you the outcome won't be pretty.

Edit: to the person above me, don't post the seller's name. He most likely doesn't even have anything to do with it. As I said before it is not a contagious disease.

 

[Talkenlate04]

Well I'll be damned. I would have never thought of this.
I have two cats, both treated with Frontline at about the same time as my breakout of deaths in my T room. And although the cats are not allowed into my T room, judging from this link to a fact sheet about the product, I’d say it is very likely what caused my unexplained deaths.
http://www.redmap.co.uk/ferretsabout/html/facts.html

 

[crpy]

Yep, the chemoreception of "T"s would probably allow for this, huh very interesting

 

[reverendsterlin]

I'm sorry to break it to you but your answer is in your previous post. You have used Frontline. It is one of the strongest household pesticides and is most likely the cause of death. Experiences from the past (going back half a year to just two weeks) tell me that this is it. I advice you to remove the Frontline from your house as fast a possible and hardclean all enclosures with infected tarantulas aswell as everything else that it came in contact with.

My only problem with this is that he has had the pet using this product in home for a longer time period, I'm not suggesting that this isn't the possible source but have doubts due to the rapidity of spread to inverts already established in this home after introduction of the new animal. Your statement seems to show causality where none has been established and is only deduction based on limited information, I'm not trying to dis you but personally I would prefer a more scientific reasoning based on actual inspection of cause of death. That said, you could very possibly be correct, I just want better verification. With respect.
Rev

 

[reverendsterlin]

Edit: to the person above me, don't post the seller's name. He most likely doesn't even have anything to do with it. As I said before it is not a contagious disease.

Previously stated:
I do have a dog and we use a monthly product called Frontline to prevent fleas and ticks. That is worth considering, but I can't think of anything different that may have happened to expose the spiders to it. Socrates is about a year old and he's been using Frontline since he was 3 months.

Again none of us know for sure the cause but linking could help if "this is not an isolated case due to frontline chemicals". Until cause has been established I am more for high security and observation than less. As you stated "most likely doesn't have anything to do with it" not positively, someone with a larger collection and a greater investment suffering this type of loss because of inaction or lack of information would not be happy. Again with respect.
Rev

 

[6StringSamurai]

I would be very interested to hear more about other outbreaks. Anyone else who's had something like this happen to their collection have a dog or cat using Frontline or a similar product?

It's odd though, when Socrates was small he would hang out in the spider room with me. When he got older I stopped allowing him inside for the most part out of fear that he would knock over a shelf. He only comes in once in a while, usually for just a few minutes until I throw him out.

You would think that something like this would have happened already, but who knows?

As things evolve I'll continue to post here.

 

[baf236]

Fipronil, the active ingredient in Frontline is also the active ingredient in Termidor. Termidor is commonly used by pest control companies for termite control. It is supposed to control termites for 5 years after your home is treated. It is injected into the soil around the foundation of the home. Has anyone had their home treated with this and if so did it have any harmful effects on your Ts?

 

[hardlucktattoo]

Well I'll be damned. I would have never thought of this.
I have two cats, both treated with Frontline at about the same time as my breakout of deaths in my T room. And although the cats are not allowed into my T room, judging from this link to a fact sheet about the product, I’d say it is very likely what caused my unexplained deaths.
http://www.redmap.co.uk/ferretsabout/html/facts.html

Well I'm glad my late night brainstorming was of some help. I bet It happens more often than not. On a related note If your animals are mainly indoors and do not spend prolonged periods of time out side You do not need flea or tick medication. IMO anyway I'm no vet but it makes sense

 

[hardlucktattoo]

I would be very interested to hear more about other outbreaks. Anyone else who's had something like this happen to their collection have a dog or cat using Frontline or a similar product?

It's odd though, when Socrates was small he would hang out in the spider room with me. When he got older I stopped allowing him inside for the most part out of fear that he would knock over a shelf. He only comes in once in a while, usually for just a few minutes until I throw him out.

You would think that something like this would have happened already, but who knows?

As things evolve I'll continue to post here.

I would wash My hands for like ten minutes Scrub the crap out of the tanks and or rehouse them all Just to be on the safe side but I am neurotic sometimes. Also Is there any correlation between the Ts affected and the Ts you handle or have recently handled

 

[proper_tea]

Personally, I don't think it was the frontline. It sounds like the dog hardly ever goes into the spider room.

I'm currently keeping 40+ Ts at the moment, and also live with 4 cats. We use frontline any time there is an outbreak. Granted, I don't handle my Ts very often, but the cats are in the spider room fairly frequently, and we haven't had any of these problems.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I bet there are a lot of other people on here who use it too.

-curtis

 

[betuana]

Human fomites

The pet treated by the front line may not be what is carrying it there, but a person might.

Lets say you treat a pet with frontline. A while (minutes, hours, even a few days later) you head into the T room, pausing briefly to pet your cat or dog, or push them away from the door to the room if they are not allowed in it, etc. Or you were sitting in a chair or on a couch that they have leaned against, and put your hand on the arm of the chair when standing....etc etc. Now trace amounts are on your hand - so trace you don't even notice the residue from it. You pick up a couple roaches and toss them in with your T's. Or even just use that hand to open the cages to do maintenance. That trace amount could then get on part of the cage where the T could come in contact with it. It probably wouldn't take much more than that trace amount to do damage. And they might get differing amounts of exposure, or no exposure, simply by the fact that people generally don't have such precise movements that the exact same parts of their hands touch the exact same parts of each cage (here I touched the edge, here the middle, here my thumb was used, here my fingers, etc).

I wouldn't rule out something like frontline as a high probability of being responsible. Even if the dog normally hangs out in there with no problems, it may not be the presence of it in the room, but any small, residual trace amount that ends up on the cage - less likely brought there by the pets themselves....

I'm glad I'm somewhat 'irresponsible' (by some standards) and haven't gotten around to treating my kitties (all indoor only anyways) with any of their products recently...

I guess it might be avoided if hands were scrubbed before entering the room at any time, and no other pets were touched until T and T food work was done. Or gloves, being careful to not touch the outside of them with your hands (put them on like surgery gloves - only the gloves get to touch the outside part (and outside only), hands only get to touch the inside parts...

Its very easy for us to inadvertently carry ANYTHING around places - mosquito truck drives by fogging the neighborhood a while before you get home, you touch your doorknob coming into the house, that crap is on your hand now... (in shelter/veterinary work we have to change scrubs and gloves going from different rooms, starting in healthy rooms and working down to the isolation rooms (keeping things like ringworm, parvo, etc for last). This is because even entering some of those rooms, you can get some of it on your clothes, and carry it with you elsewhere. Humans can be giant 'fomites' carrying things with us. Very common - its how most of us and our pets get exposed to everything - someone has a cold, we can pick it up without coming in direct contact because of things like furniture and clothing that we can pick it up from. If we are at a store or park and meet a dog with a URI, we can carry that home on us and our dog ends up with a cold.

Not to say we should freak out and panic about the cleanliness of everything, but it IS a very common way for exposure to happen, so it isn't entirely unlikely that something similar could have exposed the Ts to something.

Then again, it may be completely unrelated to the frontline, it may just be coincidental. After all, in all the months of using it you haven't had this problem before. So it makes it hard to say.

Very sorry to hear about your losses no matter the cause.

 

[GForce14063]

Maybe a fungal outbreak in the vent system releasing spores into the room. Just another possibility.

 

[Talkenlate04]

Then again, it may be completely unrelated to the frontline, it may just be coincidental. After all, in all the months of using it you haven't had this problem before. So it makes it hard to say

This is the only reason I did not blame Frontline right away with my outbreak. I have used Frontline for a long time and never had a problem with it. But I find it a bit more then coincidence that my Ts started dying right after my cats had been treated. Maybe not the cause.......... but it seems like a likely culprit at this point. And one thing is for sure, I am not going to re apply Frontline just to test out this theory.

 

[Travis K]

This is the only reason I did not blame Frontline right away with my outbreak. I have used Frontline for a long time and never had a problem with it. But I find it a bit more then coincidence that my Ts started dying right after my cats had been treated. Maybe not the cause.......... but it seems like a likely culprit at this point. And one thing is for sure, I am not going to re apply Frontline just to test out this theory.

I was not aware that you used frontline on you cat prior to you outbreak?

Front line is designed for Fleas and TICKS, ticks are arachnids, and very hardy creatures. I have been nervous about the fact I have to use 3month treatment along with a flea and tick collar to keep the ticks off our pets and out of the house. The ticks are so bad at our place the animals bring them in and sometimes we find them crawling on the wall and have to remove them from children's heads every now and then. So it is a necessary evil in my home. I am sure the treatment is not that good for use either, but I would rather be exposed to the chems than get lime decease from a tick.

Any way if one can avoid the flea and tick treatments that would be advisable IMO.

 

[reverendsterlin]

I know there was a product that airline used on passengers and they said it was safe, was always recommended for reptiles if you got mites. Still bug killer is bug killer and our pets are bugs. I figure if you keep your T's and such in an interior room you can use bug spray in the surrounding rooms. I'm sure most pet stores use something to kill pests and our T's, scorps, and such seem to make it through. I think something like this death binge will be found to have a different cause. I still think a necropsy would be the best option, toss the (unhopefully) next victim into the freezer and see if anyone knows where to send it for a quick causal study.
Rev

 

[runnergirl]

I would STRONGLY suggest you contact U Penn vet school and talk to the exotics department (Special Species Medicine there I think they call it) about testing deceased T's. There are a *few* people interested in that sort of thing. They can also have "bloodwork" (hemolymph) testing done. The single most important thing you can do in an outbreak is learn from the dead.

Frontline is extremely safe for mammals but it is supposed to be toxic to invertebrates, so it should be on the list of concerns. I would imagine we have no idea of its persistence in invertebrates but I know it isn't always toxic to them (reports from Kansas State entomology that cockroaches aren't killed by OTC fipronyl roach baits because dose is too low). It does cause excitation of nerves. Fleas get "stupid" walking erratically on the haircoat surface, so the twitching could be that. However, a lot of other things could be causing it too.

You are NOT SUPPOSED TO RUB FRONTLINE IN. FYI. Mostly because it just takes some off the dog, it's not toxic to us at all (can have contact sensitivity to the carrier liquid). That would be unnecessary exposure to inverts. Frontline is not water soluble, it is oil soluble.

(FYI: safest for your invert pets would be using orals such as Capstar and Comfortis on your dogs, because they are extremely safe for mammals, kill fleas faster than topicals, and there aren't skin residues for your invert pets to be exposed to - hopefully your t's aren't exposed to dog blood!).

We could learn of something entirely new and very important here, but not by assuming it's the Frontline. We need to KNOW - by testing!

Sherry

 

[6StringSamurai]

Contacting U Penn is a fantastic idea, I will do that right away.

Thanks everyone for taking time to read this thread and leave comments. I really appreciate it. Most of the people I know don't understand or care about this kind of thing, and when I share this story I get laughs for the most part.

 

[runnergirl]

Rereading the first post, it seems unlikely that a chronic exposure to Frontline would result in multiple T's getting sick at almost the exact same time.....
acute exposure to some toxin sounds possible.....viral is *possible* but still seems weird that the onset would be so rapid amongst affected T's....typically viruses are a little more widespread.....

Frontline is not a repellant at all, it just kills insects and halfway kills ticks....

Sherry

 

[betuana]

Another alternative to frontline

Capstar is a good thing to use for an existing flea problem, as it works within 30 minutes or so, but it doesn't provide any long term protection. However, its one of our favorites to use at the local shelter for animals coming in with fleas because it works so quickly and so well!

There is a oral flea preventative called Program - its a tablet given 1x per month to prevent fleas from being able to survive on the animal. Adult fleas can still get on them, but can't complete their reproductive cycle (and if they are found, something like capstar can be used to kill them).

Since they are both oral preventatives there aren't chemicals being put on the skin, so it should be safer.

Neither works on ticks though, so if you are in an area with ticks you'd have to check over any pets that went outside regularly for them...

A vet may have some suggestions for other things that might work like program and capstar. The fewer pesticides and such that are around the house on anything, the lower the risk of the Ts getting exposed. Even if that wasn't the cause in either of these cases, it is a potential risk for Ts in any household that uses those.

As a side note, places also change formulations frequently. Between that and the many recent problems with things manufactured elsewhere being manufactured with the incorrect formulations (dog food, cat food, heparin, etc), there is also a possibility that it never caused a problem before because it was made differently before, and that there is a new formulation now (whether intentionally or accidentally). A new formulation could make it easier to accidentally transport the stuff into our T room and into their enclosures. That was my BF's theory about why it may have been ok for a while and suddenly may not be....