Design for Amblypygid Setup?

[Chimera]

So I've wanted whip spiders for a long time, and though I'm still waiting on emails to see what sites have them in stock, I thought I'd start designing potential enclosures. I was very inspired by this thread: http://arachnoboards.com/threads/alternatives-to-cork-bark-in-amblypygids-enclosures.280900/page-2.

I'm hoping to get a fairly small and communal species, Phrynus marginemaculatus. As the enclosures in the thread above were generally for only one whip, I knew I'd have to make my enclosure bigger, with more areas to molt and hide on. I think I've come up with some great ideas, but I would like other whip owners' opinions as to what specifics would most likely be best received by the whips.

Do I know that the littler things really probably don't matter? Yes. Did I get carried away anyway?

...absolutely.

First off, I'm planning on probably purchasing the following container: https://www.amazon.com/Piece-Airtight-Storage-Container-Chrome/dp/B007RBB4XW. I'd only use the bigger one, but there aren't many places that seem to have just that container alone, so I'd just get the full set. Plus, there are different colors, so that's kind of cool!

Okay, so this is the general idea.


On the left is the front view. I would hot glue Styrofoam ledges to the front of the container, but still leave a good amount of space between the ledges and the back (which would be a solid Styrofoam wall), as seen on the side view on the right. The arrows merely indicate what the slope of each ledge would be from that point of view. I'd probably be using 1/2 in. thick Styrofoam.

But here are some different things I could do.

Should I do spaces between the ends of the ledges, so the whips could climb around them more freely? Or meet the ends to provide little corners that whips could settle into?


Should I glue many ledges so there is not much space between them, creating narrower crevices? Or put up less ledges to create a steeper slope?


Finally, should I do this whole thing on the front to provide the most surface space? Or do it on one or both of the sides for greater visibility when the whips are on the back wall?


So... what do you guys think?

Even if it ends up not working, I still had a super fun time drawing these designs out! Any feedback is appreciated!

 

[Chimera]

Just had another idea! To make the ledges’ positions customizable and the enclosure easy to clean, maybe I could use powerful magnets to hold them in place. Hmm...

 

[pannaking22]

Providing good molting areas are key, so you'll want at least a couple pieces with a very steep angle (though the back wall could work for that as well). The final drawing you have would give them the molting surface they need. Connecting the Styrofoam pieces probably wouldn't be a bad idea so they get little crevices to hide in. Would you have the sloped pieces touching the back wall? This is a neat idea and should make keeping them communally a lot more enjoyable

 

[Chimera]

Providing good molting areas are key, so you'll want at least a couple pieces with a very steep angle (though the back wall could work for that as well). The final drawing you have would give them the molting surface they need. Connecting the Styrofoam pieces probably wouldn't be a bad idea so they get little crevices to hide in. Would you have the sloped pieces touching the back wall? This is a neat idea and should make keeping them communally a lot more enjoyable

In the thread mentioned, multiple people reported that their whips had no issue molting on the back wall. In fact, I think for most of them, that was the only Styrofoam in their enclosure.

No, I’d have a good five or six inches between the ledges and the back wall, so they’d have plenty of space.

Thank you, and I hope so!

Do you think it would be better to have the ledges in a permanent pattern, as whips probably don’t have very big territories in the wild and might appreciate familiar surroundings? Or would moveable (like magnetic) ones that I. changed around every months or so be better?

I just really want to give my whips the best life possible

 

[schmiggle]

Do you think it would be better to have the ledges in a permanent pattern, as whips probably don’t have very big territories in the wild and might appreciate familiar surroundings? Or would moveable (like magnetic) ones that I. changed around every months or so be better?

I used to change my setup every so often and my whipspider would re-explore the surroundings. However, I'm not sure she actually enjoyed it. It may not make a huge difference either way. I will say, though, that I think these are smarter than they often get credit for.

As far as territory size in the wild is concerned, I think that depends on the species. I know Heterophrynus are usually only three or four to a large, buttressed tree, but Phrynus marginemaculatus is, of course, far smaller, so the rules might be different for it.

 

[Chimera]

I used to change my setup every so often and my whipspider would re-explore the surroundings. However, I'm not sure she actually enjoyed it. It may not make a huge difference either way. I will say, though, that I think these are smarter than they often get credit for.

As far as territory size in the wild is concerned, I think that depends on the species. I know Heterophrynus are usually only three or four to a large, buttressed tree, but Phrynus marginemaculatus is, of course, far smaller, so the rules might be different for it.

Hmm, okay. Then I’ll probably just hot glue the ledges. Fortunately, it’s not too difficult to peel hot glue off plastic if I feel the need to change things.

Oh, this is off-topic, but can whip spiders see? I’ve heard that they simply have poor vision, while other sources say they can’t see at all? Which is correct, or does it vary among species?

 

[schmiggle]

Oh, this is off-topic, but can whip spiders see? I’ve heard that they simply have poor vision, while other sources say they can’t see at all? Which is correct, or does it vary among species?

Whipspiders are unable to see images, but those with eyes can differentiate light and dark. Whipspiders from caves tend to have lost their eyes, as far as I know, while those from habitats with a day-night cycle can tell when it's day or night, since they're nocturnal.

 

[Chimera]

Whipspiders are unable to see images, but those with eyes can differentiate light and dark. Whipspiders from caves tend to have lost their eyes, as far as I know, while those from habitats with a day-night cycle can tell when it's day or night, since they're nocturnal.

Interesting! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Dennis Nedry]

I'd connect the pieces so they have a spot to wedge themselves into

 

[Chimera]

I'd connect the pieces so they have a spot to wedge themselves into

Great, thanks for your feedback!

 

[Fruchtpudding]

First off: The enclosure in that thread you linked is, in my opinion, absolutely awful. There is just barely enough room for the animal to stretch the antenniform legs, which might be fine by itself as they are quite sedentary in nature, but there does not seem to be any place for it to retreat to during the day. Whip spiders, in nature, retreat into cracks and crevices near their usual hunting spot, which does not seem possible in that enclosure. The animal is kept like a battery chicken, with little to no chance to exhibit natural behaviors. Also the enclosure looks, in my humble opinion, completely awful. Unless you are a breeder that tries to make maximum profit with limited room from his animal I don't see why anyone would want to keep a pet in something like that. It disgusts me.

Ok, now for the actual thread: My whip spiders, and most of the ones I have observed in nature, seem to strongly prefer to sit on vertical surfaces, so the ledges will most likely go unused. The way to provide the most surface space would be to have flat styrofoam walls on 3 sides of the enclosure. Which does look kinda lame, I agree. But the ledges there will probably not matter in the long run as long as you leave enough space for them to molt. All of mine have molted on their back walls so far, which were also completely vertical.

Then their should be places for them to retreat to during the day. They want thin crevices that they fit into snugly. An easy way to do that is to just lean something flat against the backwall at a slight angle (make sure it's secure of course). Having one such spot for every whip spider you get will also prevent conflict.

Also: Does it have to be styrofoam? Like I said, while it works, I think it looks awful. And there is a working and free alternative: Bark from outside. You can freeze it if you're worried about introducing pests, but that is what I use and it is more natural looking and certainly works.

Oh and, about the redecorating: Whip spiders will remember their environment, they make a "map" by touch. Whenever I change something in their enclosures they will come out and inspect it thoroughly. It all seemed very deliberate. I don't know if changing up established territories is a good idea though when you keep them in groups.

 

[wizentrop]

@Fruchtpudding That "awful" enclosure has been working well for my whip spiders for the past 20 years.
No stress, no molting problems, no sudden deaths, and good breedings, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also please go back and read the original thread as to WHY I keep them this way.

 

[Fruchtpudding]

@wizentrop Like I said, just because it "works" doesn't mean it has to be good. Chickens grow, eat and breed in terrible and unnatural conditons too.

For example, why do you not provide a hide? What does the animal DO during the day? Why do you prevent it from acting like it could in nature? To save space so you can have more of them? This reminds me so much of racks for reptiles, which I despise.
I keep these animals to see their fascinating natural behaviors, and for that I provide them with something that is both structured in a similar way to their natural environment and big enough for them to actually exhibit these behaviors. Why do you keep them?

 

[Dennis Nedry]

I use tree bark for my ambly, it's set against the back of the enclosure vertically because this is a species that lives under loose tree bark. I've recreated this while maintaining the ability to see the animal from every angle because there's a gap between the enclosure wall and bark.

I'm one to recreate the natural environment as well as I can while giving them as much space as I can, but that's just me

 

[wizentrop]

@Fruchtpudding All valid points. However, I will argue that when something "works" so well for so long, it is good. To answer your questions -
I don't provide a hide because these animals do not require one. It is a common misconception. In fact, the whole "natural enclosure" trend is a common misconception with invertebrates. Most of them do fine in very simple conditions, and successful breeding is usually a good indicator. You have to ask yourself if the confined enclosure you design, with its natural appearance, is for yourself to enjoy and to look at, or for the animal to live happily. Because it is fact that the animal does not need too much in requirements to behave normally.
When you keep over 200 whip spiders separately, space and maintenance become an issue.
I keep them for research purposes. During my work I have also surveyed many species in their natural habitat. They display all natural behaviors in said enclosures. Had they been stressed it wouldn't have happened and they would have stayed in one corner of the enclosure doing nothing and not eating (like many other people report here, most of which use "natural" enclosures like you describe).
You generalize a lot in your post, but each species of whip spider has their own set of requirements. What works for Damon will NOT work for Heterophrynus, Charon, Achanthophrynus, Musicodamon or Charinus. Not to mention Stygophrynus, one of the most fragile whip spiders I have experienced with.
A captive enclosure is NOT a natural environment, no matter how much you try to make it look like one. You can put in many well-placed hides, apply temperature and humidity control, mimic photoperiod - and still it will not be natural. Because you cannot copy prey diversity, the availability of different substrates, and territory size. This is why I never keep my Amblypygi communally in captivity. They might behave fine together the wild, but an enclosure is not the wild. There are many factors at play which you cannot control.

I am not trying to convince you, and of course you don't have to agree with me. I have my credentials and experience backing me up and that's fine. Not trying to win any fans here, just to open people's mind to other approaches to invertebrate keeping.

 

[pannaking22]

In the thread mentioned, multiple people reported that their whips had no issue molting on the back wall. In fact, I think for most of them, that was the only Styrofoam in their enclosure.

No, I’d have a good five or six inches between the ledges and the back wall, so they’d have plenty of space.

Thank you, and I hope so!

Do you think it would be better to have the ledges in a permanent pattern, as whips probably don’t have very big territories in the wild and might appreciate familiar surroundings? Or would moveable (like magnetic) ones that I. changed around every months or so be better?

I just really want to give my whips the best life possible

Going back and re-reading, I realized I missed the very obvious link to the thread you were talking about I've followed that thread and just re-read it all, so I agree, they'd have no problem molting there. Now to have more coffee so I don't miss things like that again...

As said above, it may not be the prettiest, but since it has been proven to work really well I don't think you'll have any issues The minimalist method isn't necessarily a bad thing and if your ambly is eating and molting it's happy enough. I do like how you're trying to mix things up a bit so they have different surfaces and angles to climb on. Be sure to post pics when they arrive!

I use pieces of cork board for all my arboreal stuff (scorps and amblys), but occasionally have problems with mold. Probably going to switch all my amblys to it soon once I get my hands on Styrofoam I'm not going to use for shipping! I only have one Phrynus marginemaculatus, but need to get more. I also have Damon diadema and Phrynus sp. Panama (fingers crossed for an ID once they get bigger).

 

[schmiggle]

While freezing bark from outside will prevent pests, if there's a chance of pesticides I imagine those will survive being frozen. Having said that, I've used firewood for salamanders and a whipspider and have never had a problem. Even if you don't freeze it, most hitchikers are unlikely to cause problems, and wood and substrate in an enclosure won't stay sterile very long once they're in an enclosure (although you're unlikely to pick up actual invertebrates). Styrofoam certainly takes the cake in terms of sterility.

 

[pannaking22]

@Chimera any updates?

 

[ArachnidSpecilist]

Haven't really read through this thread but where are the feeders and drinking place?

 

[schmiggle]

Haven't really read through this thread but where are the feeders and drinking place?

Feeders wouldn't be in the setup and amblypygids only really drink condensation--they don't usually touch standing water.