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Day & Night Cycle

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by grimmjowls, May 20, 2016.

  1. High Lord Dee

    High Lord Dee Arachnosquire

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    I just took a look. My Haplopelma minax is fully out of the burrow. And she is absolutely gorgeous. My note on the lights and being able to see your enclosures were regarding the alternative of keeping the enclosures in the dark full time. There are many keepers that use closets, etc. That is one of cool things about this hobby. There is not always a "right" or "wrong" way. My other point on lighting is that it is perfectly okay for them to hide during the day. That is what they do in nature as well.
     
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  2. No window, but not the tightest seal between the doors and the surrounding frames.
     
  3. Ryuti

    Ryuti Arachnopeon

    I keep 4 out of my 5 in a little cabinet above my desk so not much light gets in there unless I open it up for maintenance.

    I've noticed a slight improvement in activity, whether that's from the darkness or the fact that its now closer to 80 than it is 65 which was how cold it was in their old spot, I couldn't really tell you.
     
  4. High Lord Dee

    High Lord Dee Arachnosquire

    Here is the definition of "nocturnal" on Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnality

    ALL animals have distinct behavior based that is triggered by the day/night cycles. Granted that by keeping the invert in captivity, you eliminate some of the necessary reasons for the nocturnal behavior (i.e. predators, hunting at night to conserve water based on heat modifications, etc.). Don't get me started on heat arguments here as that is another can of worms in this hobby. The fact of the matter is that all animals should have a sense of day/night (other than some of the deepest cave species and ocean oddities). I believe this creates a healthier environment for MY captive invert pets. You can do whatever you want to do with yours. My opinion and sticking with it. So, to answer the original question, YES I recommend it but will modify the original answer if you have a natural light source available, it can provide the same effect. Good luck with your decision.
     
  5. cold blood

    cold blood Moderator Staff Member

    I respectfully disagree dee.....if we were talking mammals, I'd agree, but these are inverts, they don't require any light.
     
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  6. Poec54

    Poec54 Arachnoemperor Active Member

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    Right, there's situations where a spider room is going to be relatively dark: Rooms where there' not much light, and in hot climates, you don't want sunlight coming in the windows and warming up the house.

    In the wild, because of their limited eyesight, tarantulas wandering around during the day are easy targets for a multitude of predators. They're much safer in their retreats, which are usually dark. In temperate climates and higher elevations, tarantulas may sun themselves at the entrance of their retreat to warm up, but at 90 to 100 degrees plus in the summer in most areas where tarantulas live, it's too hot for them to be in direct sun during the day.
     
  7. Thistles

    Thistles Arachnobroad Arachnosupporter

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    For the care of the spiders, no. For breeding, changes in the light cycle can trigger pairing or laying for species found far from the equator. It's a seasonal cue, like flooding can be.

    Edit: clarified something. I'm a spaz when I'm on my phone. Sorry, Poec. Didn't mean to dislike your post unjustly!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
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  8. grimmjowls

    grimmjowls Arachnoknight

    Since neither side have scientific evidence, I think this is alright to be left to a matter of belief. I didn't want to start too aggressive of a debate. :sorry:

    Interesting opinions thus far, though. :happy:
     
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  9. grimmjowls

    grimmjowls Arachnoknight

    Thanks a lot for your opinion! I'm glad you shared. :D
     
  10. grimmjowls

    grimmjowls Arachnoknight

    I want to say that since most animals in the wild have a day and night cycle, that they could benefit at least minutely from it, but of course I have no evidence to back that up, I'm just speaking from what seems logical to me.
     
  11. Poec54

    Poec54 Arachnoemperor Active Member

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    So what exactly do you dislike about my post?
     
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  12. EulersK

    EulersK Arachnoworm Staff Member

    Unlike many of the arguments we have on this forum, this one is relatively harmless. Providing a day/night cycle won't hurt, and refusing a day/night cycle won't hurt either. So long as you don't provide light 24/7, then there's no harm no foul. Unless I read some hard evidence that tells me creating this cycle is worth it, I'll simply not put the energy into it. But that's my choice, the same way several people swear by providing a cycle.
     
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  13. Thistles

    Thistles Arachnobroad Arachnosupporter

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    I'm sorry! I didn't do that intentionally. I'm on my phone and must have hit it while scrolling with my finger.
     
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  14. cold blood

    cold blood Moderator Staff Member

    I will use the ts cousin the whipscorpion as an example....these animals live in caves very often....in fact if you go deep into caves where there is no light, you see spiders, pedes and other inverts thriving despite a total lack of sunlight.
     
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  15. viper69

    viper69 ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    Are those animals blind though? True cave dwelling animals are often devoid of color, often white, and ultimately lost their eyes. Yet, cave dwelling insects have been shown to have a circadian rhythm.

    I think what people are discussing, at least in my mind are the following:

    1. Do Ts have a circadian rhythm
    2. Do they require light for entrainment of circadian clock

    I think this is a very interesting question because light serves a variety of functions. Nothing would surprise me scientifically on this one.

    I don't know how Ts are subject to circadian rhythm at the molecular level.

    Spiders have a circadian rhythm. Even insects living in a cave have one, and they don't see light. So they must have the molecular machinery for this.

    I don't know if Ts have per genes as humans and insects do. I'm almost positive they do because these genes are so heavily conserved throughout evolution. I'd be quite surprised if Ts didn't have these genes.

    The lowly cricket has them, the mighty tarantula MUST! :D

    I do know that butterflies for example do get cues from the sun as a result of circadian rhythym.

    And definitely flies have per genes.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754321/

    Unfortunately there is little money to study Ts at the molecular level beyond venom and silk genes.

    For people interested in this at a molecular level see below

    http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/drosophila-molecular-clock-model
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
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  16. .......and a carpet full of roaches living on bat dung.
     
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  17. grimmjowls

    grimmjowls Arachnoknight

    I'm glad I provided an interesting question, aha. Something to ponder about before bed!
     
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  18. Spidermolt

    Spidermolt Arachnoknight

    I agree with venom its nothing like lets say most lizards but its still good to have some type of indirect light source for a good portion of the day.
     
  19. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    Now we're talking! Viper69 said the magic words on this topic: "circadian rhythm." This topic has been studied in spiders and the results show that some species do have a circadian rhythm and some do not. What's interesting is not only the behavioral changes between daily photoperiods, but the metabolic changes as well. Tarantulas in both captivity and the wild show an increase in activity at night and a decrease in activity during the day. In theory, during daytime hours, the light could signal to a tarantula's central nervous system to slow down their metabolic function essentially giving them a rest period while at sunset the decrease of light would send a signal to the CNS to ramp up metabolic function to prepare for hunting, mating, or any other activity. Such changes have been proven to occur in other spiders that are both diurnal and nocturnal with such changes to metabolic functions (respiration, heart rate, etc.) happening at their respective time. Nocturnal spiders "rest" during the day and diurnal spiders "rest" at night.

    Something to keep in mind though is that in captivity, tarantulas don't show us a lot of natural behavior due to a lack of environmental cues from being kept in artificial environments. Tarantulas that would burrow in the wild don't do so in captivity, for instance, so the interpretation of behavioral changes as a result of a photoperiod or lack thereof are lost. One can then erroneously come to the conclusion that a photoperiod has no benefit to tarantulas as one can't readily observe changes in metabolic function when a day/night cycle is provided.

    My hypothesis is that tarantulas from temperate climates where there is big difference between night and day both in amount of light as well as other environmental conditions have a circadian rhythm where-as those from tropical regions do not. If there is a benefit to providing a day/night cycle to captive tarantulas, then it would be giving them a rest in a 24 hour period. However, given the anecdotal evidence of those who keep their tarantulas in darkness 24/7, I would say the benefit of a rest period, if one actually exists for tarantulas, is negligible.

    If you want to learn more about spider circadian rhythms or biorhythms, search Google Scholar for papers on the subject.
     
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  20. viper69

    viper69 ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    When I was writing that post, I'd hope you drop by ;)

    I did find a reference to scorpions having a circadian rhythm as well as protein from at least one of the clock genes. As I mentioned earlier, these genes are HIGHLY conserved, so I'd be shocked if Ts didn't have them. After all, scorpions evolved long before mammals. Maybe someone will look some day.

    See page 3 for protein evidence in scorps, or below

    http://www.americanarachnology.org/about_AAS/newsletters/AmerArachnol70.pdf

    When I was searching I found only one reference to C.R. and tarantulas, mind you only used google, not scholar. However, I don't have access to the journal, even tried searching for the PDF alone, no soap.

    The paper's abstract suggest Avic's have a C.R. that is weaker than desert Ts. This suggests either they studied those as well or others have, no access to the paper and thus Lit Cited section :(

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09291018509359879

    Via a book w/ref to same authors AND desert T data

    https://books.google.com/books?id=4TztCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA376&lpg=PA376&dq=avicularia+circadian+rhythm&source=bl&ots=9jcHYoJ-QJ&sig=cg8PimBOpzD9xW8-jCvWAw-veCc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_2IfAru3MAhVDF2MKHejfD9AQ6AEILDAD#v=onepage&q=avicularia circadian rhythm&f=false

    Scorpions.JPG
     
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