Communal Ts.

[Kitara]

Tell me about communal Ts. At the reptile shop near my house they have "pink toes" housed 2-3 to an enclosure. I don't know the scientific name because it's not labeled other than "pink toes." (They were black with pink toes. Avicularia avicularia?) I was just curious if this is normal selling practice? From what I've read here, there is only a couple species that can be housed together and I dont remember ever reading about pink toes being communal. Are they able to house these together because they are still small (2" ish)? It just made me curious.

(PS I I am not buying Ts from them and I'm not buying and calling it rescuing either. )

 

[EtienneN]

Nope this is just stupidity of people who think they know what they’re doing without any real research or capacity for knowledge. ‘Pink Toes’ of any kind are not communal in any way, shape, or form. It’s just cannibalism waiting to happen. There really are no ‘true’ communal tarantulas. The most successful communal species is M. balfouri, but even then there are plenty of ‘experienced’ people who have predation in there Monocentropus balfouri colonies. To me it’s just not worth the gamble.

 

[Predacons5]

From what I have seen of Avics in the wild from video documentaries posted on YouTube, they are not communal creatures.

While some individuals do live in close proximity to each other, they are still a good distance apart. Unless the space you house them in is large enough for several, and there is a way for them to escape from each other should one decide to get hungry and eat the others out of convenience, it is best not to house these tarantulas in a small enclosure in a communal.

If you want to know how they really live in the wild, there is a great video of Caribena versicolor in the wild. Although they are not classified as Avics now, they used to be and they are very closely related. True Avics are not much different in habit.

I'll provide a video of Caribena versicolor in the wild, and another with Avics in the wild.

Caribena versicolor (Watch it after the screen blacks out at the end of the video, there is a short and very fast segment where a larger Caribena versicolor pounces on a nearby smaller Caribena versicolor and eats it - that should answer your question quite clearly! You may also skip to 8:20. Don't blink, it's fast!):

Avicularia spp.:

 

[viper69]

Tell me about communal Ts. At the reptile shop near my house they have "pink toes" housed 2-3 to an enclosure. I don't know the scientific name because it's not labeled other than "pink toes." (They were black with pink toes. Avicularia avicularia?) I was just curious if this is normal selling practice? From what I've read here, there is only a couple species that can be housed together and I dont remember ever reading about pink toes being communal. Are they able to house these together because they are still small (2" ish)? It just made me curious.

(PS I I am not buying Ts from them and I'm not buying and calling it rescuing either. )

There's no scientific reports from any T expert observing communals with Ts in the wild. SO, there's nothing to tell except that doing it means you may end up with one big fat spider. I don't see why people throw animals together when it hasn't been demonstrated in the wild.

From what I have seen of Avics in the wild from video documentaries posted on YouTube, they are not communal creatures.

While some individuals do live in close proximity to each other, they are still a good distance apart. Unless the space you house them in is large enough for several, and there is a way for them to escape from each other should one decide to get hungry and eat the others out of convenience, it is best not to house these tarantulas in a small enclosure in a communal.

If you want to know how they really live in the wild, there is a great video of Caribena versicolor in the wild. Although they are not classified as Avics now, they used to be and they are very closely related. True Avics are not much different in habit.

I'll provide a video of Caribena versicolor in the wild, and another with Avics in the wild.

Caribena versicolor (Watch it after the screen blacks out at the end of the video, there is a short and very fast segment where a larger Caribena versicolor pounces on a nearby smaller Caribena versicolor and eats it - that should answer your question quite clearly! You may also skip to 8:20. Don't blink, it's fast!):

Avicularia spp.:

Nice to see someone catch that predation on camera.

 

[Rhino1]

@Predacons5 nice share!
Im always looking for decent invert documentaries and such, love seeing how they do it in the wild.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

No, the vast majority of these species that are often touted as "communal species" (Pokies/Avics/Neoholothele/etc.) do OK up to juvie sizes and then start eating each other, I've hastily constructed this little flow chart to help you decide if you should attempt to keep a species communally.

 

[Kitara]

Unless the space you house them in is large enough for several, and there is a way for them to escape from each other

Oh it definitely isn't. They are in the small(ish) exo terra ones.

If you want to know how they really live in the wild, there is a great video of Caribena versicolor in the wild. Although they are not classified as Avics now, they used to be and they are very closely related. True Avics are not much different in habit.

Thanks! That's awesome.

to help you decide if you should attempt to keep a species communally

Oh no no. I was only curious about them selling them that way and why they would do that. I have no desire at all to house my Ts together. I DO like your flow chart though. lol

 

[The Grym Reaper]

I was only curious about them selling them that way and why they would do that.

My bad, I'm not with it today. I've never seen anyone trying to sell Avics like that but a lot of sellers here regularly try to sell Pokies and N. incei as communal groups (usually in batches of 5-10), personally I think the practice is extremely shady.

 

[Goopyguy56]

There is more than one species that has has success keeping communaly. You just can't btalk about it on these boards.

 

[EtienneN]

There is more than one species that has has success keeping communaly. You just can't btalk about it on these boards.

I'm refraining from facepalming just because that by itself could be a correct statement...BUT a sample size of one or a handful even of success stories does not mitigate the glaring overarching trend which is for things to go belly up sooner or later and for bought and paid for tarantulas, sometimes expensive tarantulas to needlessly die because of the whims of their owners.

 

[Predacons5]

There is more than one species that has has success keeping communaly. You just can't btalk about it on these boards.

If you go on YouTube and search for Exotics Lair, (I know some people here question this guy's practices in general, but I'm not posting this here to discuss whether someone likes what he does on his channel or not - I'm being far more specific by pointing out only 1 of his experiences here), and look up his attempt at keeping Monocentropus balfouri communally, this is how hit or miss this practice can be. The guy started with 3 slings, and ended up with 1 big fat sling. Some people are able to make the Monocentropus balfouri communal work, and I have seen it myself firsthand, but I've also heard that in some cases it does not.

Avics, yeah, I wouldn't do it. I'm not about to flush a few $40 - $50 animals down the toilet because I decided to keep it communally when it's clearly not appropriate to do so from the video of the several wild Caribena versicolor I posted.

 

[EtienneN]

I feel like to some extent, keeping tarantulas communally arose from people 'seeing' tarantulas in the wild live in semi close proximity and not understanding that because of this cannibalism happens all the time. Or, it arises from people in the herp hobby who treat tarantulas like geckos or dart frogs or other communally kept species in that hobby, because some people just have that "if it's good for one, it must be good for the other" mentality.

 

[Liquifin]

Avics are not communal at all.

M. balfouri "could work" but I've never done it with my 4 that I have. I personally believe that a M. balfouri communal will work better if there were more food offered to lower the chances of cannibalism. I would be interested to hear the longest running M. balfouri communal set-up. But at the end of the day, any communal is gamble. I'll probably try my own M. balfouri communal in the future that I bred myself, but I would offer a bit more space and way more feedings for a change.

 

[Predacons5]

I haven't done any communal set ups at all, and judging from what I've seen so far of tarantulas in the wild, and from what I've seen in the YouTube tarantula community, I doubt I will do anything of this sort to any of the tarantulas I have already purchased or will purchase in the future.

My experience with this has been that I didn't know anything about keeping tarantulas communally until I've seen it being done on either YouTube or have heard of it being done on tarantula forums. I got curious and decided to look into it lightly. After finding out more about this practice and more about how tarantulas actually live in the wild, I have determined that unless there is hard evidence for that specific species being truly communal, it is not worth it to put the lives of my pets at risk, and to hurt my pocketbook in the process.

I think that in some cases, some people feel that tarantulas can live communally because of the close proximity they live in with each other in the wild. This is relative however. The amount of space these animals are living apart from each other is relatively far greater than the space we are providing as hobbyists even though it looks pretty close in the wild. Cannibalism is happening in the wild all the time, it is just that people don't get to see it at the rate at which it actually happens in the wild. The Caribena versicolor video just provided tangible evidence for this. It really shouldn't be a debate at all.

 

[Gogyeng]

If you go on YouTube and search for Exotics Lair, (I know some people here question this guy's practices in general, but I'm not posting this here to discuss whether someone likes what he does on his channel or not - I'm being far more specific by pointing out only 1 of his experiences here), and look up his attempt at keeping Monocentropus balfouri communally, this is how hit or miss this practice can be. The guy started with 3 slings, and ended up with 1 big fat sling. Some people are able to make the Monocentropus balfouri communal work, and I have seen it myself firsthand, but I've also heard that in some cases it does not.

Avics, yeah, I wouldn't do it. I'm not about to flush a few $40 - $50 animals down the toilet because I decided to keep it communally when it's clearly not appropriate to do so from the video of the several wild Caribena versicolor I posted.

Just to double-tap. the subfamily Aviculariinae and in particular C. versicolor, is not being apt to communalism. In fact cannibalism in the wild is pretty common. The video you show above is pretty illustrative

 

[Goopyguy56]

I never advocated keeping anything communal. I just know that it has been done with other species. I personally wouldn't try it with anything but m Balfouri.

 

[Predacons5]

There is more than one species that has has success keeping communaly. You just can't btalk about it on these boards.

I'm gonna explain why I am responding to you the way I am, do not get offended, it is not meant to be...

I do not know what "btalk" means, but I'm assuming one of two things by this word:

1) "bad talk"

2) something I can't say because it is against Arachnoboard policy "talk"

I have done neither.

The original question was about Avics. I thought that the original question had been answered to the best of my knowledge using the evidence that is available. I am saying something because there is something that can back up my talk. I'm not trying to muddy waters or fudge the truth.

I am aware that some tarantula keepers practice keeping some of their tarantulas communally. I am not here to bash anybody's decision to do what they want with their tarantulas. I may not be for the practice, and I may or may not speak up about it, but it's none of my business unless somebody's asking and I feel I have something to say to contribute to the matter.

I never advocated keeping anything communal. I just know that it has been done with other species. I personally wouldn't try it with anything but m Balfouri.

If you say that you do not advocate keeping tarantulas communally, that is fine, I have to take your word for that.

Keeping some species of tarantulas communally has been done by others is true, but it is not the complete picture. There are caveats to this practice. One of them being the amount of space provided for the animals. The other is feeding them enough to discourage cannibalism. In most cases a third element is involved, and @The Grym Reaper mentioned this briefly - the age of the animals. Many tarantulas do live in groups as slings and only up until a certain age before cannibalism happens.

I've also mentioned that in some cases Monocentropus balfouri communal set ups have not worked out long term.

There is no bad mouthing of anybody in my case. I'm just stating what there is evidence for.

 

[NukaMedia Exotics]

A. avicularia are definitely not communal, people are stupid.

 

[Goopyguy56]

On these forums, it is considered heresy to claim anything but m Balfouri can be kept communal. Maybe they are right. Unfortunately, it is near impossible to ask or start a conversation about other species without many getting bent out of shape about it. Other species have had success. Whether it is wrong to even attempt something new is an opinion. If you do try another species you cannot even talk about it on these boards because of all the hardliners on here. It's just plain old sad if you ask me. Even the moderators get bent out of shape.

 

[EtienneN]

On these forums, it is considered heresy to claim anything but m Balfouri can be kept communal. Maybe they are right. Unfortunately, it is near impossible to ask or start a conversation about other species without many getting bent out of shape about it. Other species have had success. Whether it is wrong to even attempt something new is an opinion. If you do try another species you cannot even talk about it on these boards because of all the hardliners on here. It's just plain old sad if you ask me. Even the moderators get bent out of shape.

Maybe others have had success, but there are no 'other species' where if you, say, had a sample size of ten people each with communals of 10 spiders each where consistently you would get the success rates of what you have with M. balfouri. You might get one out of ten or two out of ten but you wouldn't get six or seven out of ten like what you'd expect out of M. balfouri. I'm not trying to detract from the "successes" but I think people need to look at this through the correct frame of reference and understand that if they do try it with other species besides M. balfouri there's a statistically significant chance that they'll just end up with one big fat spider. If they know that and still go on and try that's their business. At least then they are prepared for this eventuality and can make peace with the fact that they might lose money and tarantulas in the endeavor. Pokies are not communal. Neoholothele incei are not communal. 99.9% of tarantulas are not communal. Heck even M. balfouri need to be separated on occasion.