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clipping scorpion stingers

Discussion in 'Scorpions' started by arachi american, Nov 4, 2007.

  1. RoachGirlRen

    RoachGirlRen Arachnoangel

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    Yeah, people keep talking about chopping off the telson... the OP stated that it was the aculeus(sp?), not the entire telson. Still really f'd up, but not nearly as harmful to the animal. A removed telson would probably equal death.
     
  2. kotex

    kotex Arachnopeon

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    u sound like real supporting the clipping the stinger, just don know y u are here
     
  3. PhilK

    PhilK Arachnolord Old Timer

    You mean despite the fact I have mentioned numerous times I think it is wrong? Get out of it, you galah.

    All I'm doing is bringing a scientific argument into the fact.. saying it probably doesn't hurt the scorpion. Not once did I say I support it (quite the opposite), not once did I say it's a good thing, and I'm certainly not about to go do it to my scorpions.
     
  4. butch4skin

    butch4skin Arachnoprince

    To support Phil for a moment, I'm sure he would agree that it stresses the scorpions, and we all know prolonged stress can kill a bug, though I'm not sure this qualifies. Ain't that right Phil?
     
  5. PhilK

    PhilK Arachnolord Old Timer

    Bingo, mate. I have no doubt that it is detrimental to the scorpion and I cannot see anything good about doing it. All I was saying is that inverts can't feel pain. This doesn't mean I think we should go around hacking bits off them!

    PS Hahahaha 'to support Phil for a moment'
     
  6. Vietnamese510

    Vietnamese510 Arachnoknight

    who has felt what a scorpion is feeling before?...
    anyone?


    ok so NO ONE KNOW HOW IT FEELS WHEN IT GETS IT TELSON CLIPPED OFF
    EDUCATED GUESS DONT MEAN <crap> WHEN IT COMES TO THIS YOU ARE NOT INSIDE TO FEEL IT ARE YOU? NO

    EDUCATED GUESS=YOU DONT KNOW FOR SURE YOUR JUST GUESSING

    IF you disagree try clipping one of your scorpion telsons off and see that goes

    and when you do let me know if it hurt you or not
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2007
  7. Brettus

    Brettus Arachnoknight

    It depends upon how you classify pain I suppose. There is no doubt a cricket would have a complex series of physiological reactions to having its leg ripped off, abdomen burst etc. In humans pain is just a reaction telling us something is wrong. In the absence of definitive proof, I would suggest that the physiological response in invertebrates would have to be something akin to pain to tell the organism something is similarly wrong. I just find the notion that "it knows something is wrong" without a feeling of something like pain to be a bit vague.

    Several studies have also suggested plants can feel something akin to pain, so if they could certainly inverts could.
     
  8. PhilK

    PhilK Arachnolord Old Timer

    You're being a goose and not even thinking. You do not have to be something to know something about it. When I play fetch with my dog, I know he is having fun even though I'm not him. AMAZING!

    Science is what is being discussed here, not feelings. If an animal doesn't exhibit classic signs of pain (and huge amounts of research has been done on pain), and has a simpler nervous system that seems incapable of processing pain.. the chances are it cannot feel pain. You can't argue with those facts, no matter how high on your horse you are.

    The scorpions in question (as far as I remember) lived their lives fine without stingers, suggesting it wasn't that bad for them? (Again, for those people who still don't understand, I'm not saying it is good to clip stingers)

    Brettus: pain is not the only way that things feel something is wrong. Far from it. Physiological reactions telling a cricket, say, that something has gone wrong could be chemicals released from ruptured cells or something. It doesn't need something akin to pain to know something isn't right.

    As far as I'm aware all the studies on plants feeling pain were also bogus.. There were some physiological signs of stress, but once again it was chemical-related (as far as I remember)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2007
  9. Vietnamese510

    Vietnamese510 Arachnoknight

    -_-

    obviously DOGs are a mans best friend
    you dont see scorpions playing fetch with you
    and you wouldnt know if the scorpions have fun or not
    they dont wag there tails when they are happy

    and if you have rreal Proven Facts i would love to see them
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2007
  10. PhilK

    PhilK Arachnolord Old Timer

    Dogs also wag their tails when agitated, genius.
    I cannot hold a conversation with you as you're missing all the main points :rolleyes: .. I used my dog having fun as an example of external observation of behaviour being used to assess health/feelings.

    So if we externally observe no pain-indicating behaviour it is safe to assume the animal is not in pain!
     
  11. Vietnamese510

    Vietnamese510 Arachnoknight

    ok yes i am a genious i know but besides that

    so i clipped the stinger what would the scorpion do?

    run around really fast like its pancing correct?

    what does that mean? its happy so its running around really fast
     
  12. PhilK

    PhilK Arachnolord Old Timer

    http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm

    Good and simple explanations.

    I'm not even sure what you're saying here.. I assume you're saying that because you clipped the stinger, it would run around fast because it is in pain? You're actually suggesting running around fast means it hurts? My scorpion runs around fast when I lift the bark its sleeping under - do you think it is in pain?
    It's probably running around fast to get away from the potential predator that picked it up (the clipper).. it has nothing to do with pain. My old scorpion got its leg caught in a ventilation part of the cage and snapped it clean in half. It didn't 'run around in pain'...
     
  13. Vietnamese510

    Vietnamese510 Arachnoknight

    now there we go thats exactly was i waiting for you to pull out
     
  14. butch4skin

    butch4skin Arachnoprince

    Honestly, I don't really know what to think either way. I just had the day off, was kinda bored, and felt like a debate. I feel like Phil had some valid points. I feel like I kicked ass too. Vietnamese and Kotex, no offense guys, but I feel like your arguments were kind of weak. If we're gonna be on the same team again you guys gotta start bringing your A-game. Take it as constructive criticism. Well done Phil, we must do it again soon. Maybe next time we'll even be on the same team.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2007
  15. PhilK

    PhilK Arachnolord Old Timer

    Everyone loves a good debate.. But I shudder to think of us on the same side butch.. Those who oppose us could be seriously injured.. Verbally..
     
  16. butch4skin

    butch4skin Arachnoprince

    Yes, we would dominate.
     
  17. thats my policy too, i do have some that they can hold like millipedes (N. americanus) but never the good bugs that could hurt the kids. (or get hurt by the kids) the millipedes hang on real well and the kids arent apt to toss them lol
     
  18. IMO, i believe that they can feel or sense something that is not right. they will try to get away and all that but they dont seem slowed down by a non crippling blow. Humans i believe feel pain differantly than other creatures. If you inflict pain on humans it can cause physcological effects aside from the physical effects. Ask some torture victims, many have no physical damage but had great pain inflicted on them. They (some anyway) show many physcological problems (varied not many in one person all the time). Also, lets say you get a bad pain in your abdomen while doing something, you stop because the pain overrides your brain saying to run or make beakfast. WE process pain from a physical and emotional point. where inverts only(seem) to process damage from an instinctive point. If i stick my hand on a hot plate, instinct tells me to jerk it away... but then my brain and emotions kick in and make me pamper the damaged flesh and moan and groan and maybe even cry depending on my pain threshold. you rip off a Ts or scorps leg, its has no such response. IT runs, and tries to defend itself or escape. It wont do anything to indicate that it feels the pain (as we know feeling pain).

    This in no way makes whacking off a part of one the right thing to do. Do they feel pain? I am not sure , but i am pretty sure they dont feel pain like WE do.
     
  19. Brettus

    Brettus Arachnoknight

    I followed your link Phil, and discovered these main points against invertebrates feeling pain

    In reference to the first point, it is a big generalisation that vertebrates are long-lived and invertebrates not so. Take tarantulas for example-many are capable of outliving a whole host of vertebrates. The oldest lion may make 20in capativity, whereas 20 seems to be a relatively easily achieved age for some species of T. On the other hand, shrews, a mammalian vertebrate, can live for less than one year. If the logic is that longer-lived animals should feel pain, then why don't T's.

    The second point is true, I suppose, but it must be remebered that different cells play different roles in different organisms. Take dolphins for example. Dolphins show amazing intelligence, but their intelligence actually stems from a different part of the brain then in humans. Using human standards of intelligence based on brain design, they should be dumb, but their intelligence is based on different criteria-who is to say that does not apply to invertebrates. I'm not suggesting that inverts feel emotion, but I don't think that just because they have ganglia it is sufficient to say they don't feel pain-the role of these may be more complex then we appreciate.

    The third point is the biggest generalisation of them all, and downright wrong in some regards. True, some invertebrates are cannibalisitic, but so are many vertebrates, including most reptiles. Other inverts show amazing parental care, such as the mothercare spider (Theridion sisyphium) that provides food for her spiderlings when they shake her legs. Whip spider mothers often stroke their offspring to calm them, and placed in an unfamiliar tank, two siblings will seek each other out. What is more, the notion that most invertebrates have no social behaviour is just rubbish-the social insects have probably the most complex social structures of any organism on the planet. As to how crickets carry on walking on a damaged leg, I think that has got more to do with the robustness of invertebrates then anything;) Vertebrates need to harden up!

    I'm unsure as to whether invertebrates can feel pain or not, and it is hard to judge when the basic body plan is so different to vertebrates. But I don't think the points raised here are conclusive enough to be proof they cannot feel pain. Sorry for the long post
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2007
  20. PhilK

    PhilK Arachnolord Old Timer

    No worries for the long post mate. I'd wanna say that the link I gave is a fairly basic kind of deal. It isn't a scientific research paper or anything, and so acts on generalisations.

    The fact is, better (and smarter) people than us here have researched invertebrates and their pain-feeling abilities (or inabilities). I am not a neuroscientist or neurobiologist so have no idea how having ganglia instead of a "more advanced" system affects feeling pain. But I bet my boots that those people who have researched it and looked into it at any kind of deep level have a pretty darn good idea, and all of them seem to come up with the idea that there is no way such a simple nervous system could be capable of feeling pain.. (at least, the vast majority come to this conclusion)

    More food for thought:
    http://en.allexperts.com/q/Zoology-1354/Pain-invertebrates.htm (a little wishy washy)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1408050,00.html
    http://www.livescience.com/animals/ap_lobster_pain_050214.html (I think this is similair to the one above)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2007