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Chinese Black, Haplopelma?

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by LaRiz, Sep 5, 2002.

  1. LaRiz

    LaRiz Arachnodemon Old Timer

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    Alright, you take a look at what they're calling the Chinese black earth tiger, Ornithoctonus(Selenocosmia)huwena, or whatever they're calling it nowadays. Then look at a Haplopelma schmidti, Chinese Gold earth tiger. What are the differences between the two, other than coloration? What differences would persuade the black version from being catagorized into a genus, other than Haplopelma. What gives, Volker? :D
    john
     

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  2. Blackwidow69

    Blackwidow69 Arachnopeon

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    Well i do say!!!!

    Man thats a nice pic and i do say a very nice T indeed.. :D ;P =D
     
  3. VolkervonWirth

    VolkervonWirth Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Hi John,

    Before a month ago I've received more than 50 dead preserved Specimen of the Chinese black from a german Supplier for my research work. I've compared them with my Material of Haplopelma schmidti/Ornithoctonus huwena (both Species belongs very obviously to one and same Species) and I can tell that I couldn't find any relevant taxonomically differences, exept of the coloration, by which you can distinguish both "variations"! To my opinion the chinese black (which was described as Selenocosmia hainana by Liang et.al in 1999*) is nothing more than a colorvariation (maybe a subspecies???) of Haplopelma schmidti!You can see the slightly color differences on the picture below. I possess two adult alive females of this chinese black (= Selenocosmia hainana) and a lot of Subadults and Spiderlings of Haplopelma schmidti. So, what I decide to do in the future is to prove whether it is possible to produce Hybrids of both Species or not. When I will have the next adult male of Haplopelma schmidti in the next year, I will try to mate such a male with one of the chinese black females. We will see what will happen!;)
    BTW, the Chinese black must be still named as Selenocosmia hainana, although we know that it has nothing to do with Selenocosmia. As long as nobody revised this Species and put it into the correct genus, this name has to be used!

    Cheers, Volker

    *References:

    Liang, S. P., X. J. Peng, R. H. Huang & P. Chen. (1999): Biochemical identification of Selenocosmia hainana sp. nov. from south China (Araneae, Theraphosidae). Life Sci. Res. (3): 299-303.


    Chinese black (=Selenocosmia hainana) female:
     
  4. LaRiz

    LaRiz Arachnodemon Old Timer

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    It seems there are much color variances in the Haplopelma schmidti. I own several females of different sizes, and they all look different. I have one that looks as orange and gold as Pterinochilus sp "usambara", and another, which I previously pictured, is quite dark, legs being chocolately brown. That particular specimen is a massive creature and was purchased as a Chinese Black. It looks like a dark Gold H. schmidti to me. Black or Gold?
    And, what advantage would be had from having a white "mustache" along the chelicera, or is this for show?
    Also, Volker, why "schmidti"?
    john
     
  5. VolkervonWirth

    VolkervonWirth Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Hi John,

    as I told before in another "asian" Thread here, the coloration of tarantulas isn't really a good character to distinguish Species. This means that you have to examine your Specimen concerning the useful taxonomical characters to clarify the Species - affiliation and the phylogenetical relationships of your Specimen.

    I don't know. This has certainly something to do with evolution. There ought to be an ecologist who should examine the natural conditions and coherences of this Species to her environment to clarify the sense of the white hairstructure above the cheliceral scopula.

    Do you mean, why I named this Species as "schmidti"?

    Cheers, Volker
     
  6. LaRiz

    LaRiz Arachnodemon Old Timer

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    Volker,
    Yes, why did you pick Schmidt, as opposed to something like Haplopelma vonwirthi? Just curious.
    Also, in your opinion, what is the largest of Asian tarantula. Alot think it may be Haplopelma schmidti. I've even heard a story of a preserved Cyriopagopus thorelli being as large as some Theraphosa blondi. This I doubt.
    thanks,
    john
     
  7. VolkervonWirth

    VolkervonWirth Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Hi,

    no, it's not curious. It's an unwritten law that somebody shouldn't name a new Species with his own name! Usually a Species should be named after the collector or somebody who has something to do with the new Species or the collection of it (andersoni= Dr. Anderson,smithi= Mr. Smith...), or the name should indicate to a special feature of the new Species (albostriatum= white striped,robustum= strong/large)!
    When I had described the Haplopelma schmidti in 1991,I've named this new Tarantula after the person who first recognised that it was a new Species, namely Dr. Schmidt (to which I had a good relationship at that time, but which changed rapidly in the meantime,of course!).

    Haplopelma schmidti and "Selenocosmia" hainana are very large asian tarantulas. They can reach a bodylength of 7cm, maybe more. The largest asian tarantula in my collection is a blackish morph of Chilobrachys andersoni from which a few Specimen were imported by the Pettrade in 1987 and from which I don't know the exact locality (it should be somewhere in Thailand).This beast has a bodylength of 8cm. When it was alive (it's actually preserved in alcohol) it killed adult white mice without any Problems!After she had bitten a mice, she never let her go, even when the mice tried to run away!!!! My own adult female of Cyriopagopus schioedtei (=Petrade Cyriopagopus thorelli ) is medium sized,round about 5 -6cm bodylength! I've never seen a Specimen of this Species which should be as large as Theraphosa blondi!I also disbelieve this!

    Cheers, Volker
     
  8. LaRiz

    LaRiz Arachnodemon Old Timer

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    Volker,
    This would explain the whole Lyrognathus capizi controversy. Schmidti is the only name to go with. Very good then.
    I've only got more questions now. You probably addressed this in a previous private emailing, if not, what's the latest on Cyriopagopus thorelli and C. schioedtei. Do you believe that the C. thorelli in the US pettrade, is actually C. schioedtei? Any differences on the two you can elaborate more on? If this is true, should I, as well as others that bred the US "C. thorelli", be actually marketing produced offspring as Cyriopagopus schioedtei?
    Sorry for the bombardment of questions. :)
    john
     
  9. VolkervonWirth

    VolkervonWirth Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Good Morning!

    Excuse me Sir,but what is the Lyrognathus capizi controversy??? :confused: :confused: And, what in the hell is Lyrognathus capizi???:confused: 'Never heard of it!

    No, I had another choice.First I'd decided to name this Species as Haplopelma "albobarbatum", because of the white "beard" of hairs above the cheliceral scopula, but then I thought it would be better to appreciate Schmidt's work (at that time I thought his taxonomical work was outstanding,... what an aberration!:( ) with naming this new Species after him!

    Well, I think such questions can be interesting for the general public, so I have nothing against it to ask me in the public!

    The actual situation is as follows.
    The real Cyriopagopus thorelli was described from the northern Malaysia by Eugene Simon, a famous french arachnologist of the 19th century, in 1901 along with a single male. This male, the Holotype of this Species, is propably deposited in the MHNP (= National Museum of History in Paris). After Simon's description,nobody had ever examined the Holotype untill now to my knowledge.This means, we have only the statements of Simon's description to identify a Cyriopagopus thorelli. I think, I don't need to tell here how "useful" this original descriptions are for the identification of a Species!;) In short words: It's not possible to make a sure identification of a Cyriopagopus thorelli male at the moment.
    Cyriopagopus schioedtei was described in 1891 by Tamerland Thorell, a swedish arachnologist, from a female. 4 years later, Reginal Ines Pocock, an english arachnologist, described the male of this Species. This Material is deposited in London and Copenhagen and was lastly examined and drawn by my friend and colleague Andrew Smith. He gave me a copy of the drawings so that I'm able to identify this Species.
    I've examined the Pettrade Cyriopagopus thorelli, which were imported into the european and american Petmarket within the last years. I couldn't find any relevant differences to the informations I have concerning the Cyriopagopus schioedtei.Because of this, I'm of the opinion that the pettrade Cyriopagopus thorelli is in reality a Cyriopagopus schioedtei. BTW, I asked the whole time by myself: who was the person who identified the Petrade Cyriopagopus as the Species thorelli! Because, this Person must have examined the Type Specimen, which is deposited in Paris, to get a correct identification. No such Person is known to me! This leads me to the conclusion that this Species was named by one of the first importers with their usual "way" of naming tarantulas (see below)!:(
    Another hint: The real Cyriopagopus thorelli and Cyriopagopus schioedtei share nearly the same locality. So it would be possible that both Species could be synonymous. If they are synonymous (an examination of the male type Specimen of Cyriopagopus thorelli could verify this), the name Cyriopagopus schioedtei has priority,because this name was earlier published than the name thorelli.You see, there are a lot of hints that indicates that Cyriopagopus schioedtei is the correct name for the Pettrade Species!

    I'm a friend of naming the Species as exact as possible! To reach this, I search as best as I can. This takes time and costs money.The most suppliers makes it much more easier. The Petrade always needs Species names to sell the different tarantulas.It doesn't matter to them whether the names are right or wrong; and if they have different colorvariations of one and the same Species, they will sell all these colorvariations as different Species with different Species names (= Grammostola spatulata - the redish morph, Grammostola rosea - the grey morph of one and the same Species).If they get a new Tarantula species from anywhere, they usually looks what they look like and then they look in a book - for example - which species of the assumed Genus are described from the imported country (BTW, they really don't know whether the specimen comes from that country or from a neighbor country!).Then they often guess one of the possible Species. For example: When the first "Vietnam" tarantulas where imported to the german Pettrade before 6 Years ago, they recognised that the Specimen could belong to the Haplopelma genus. They found out that only Haplopelma schmidti was described from Vietnam,so they sold them under this name. Unneeded to say that the imported Species had nothing to do with the original Haplopelma schmidti. They were only an "ordinary" darker colorform of Haplopelma albostriatum which apropos has a very wide spread area!;) If you'll support this easy and mostly wrong way of "research", then please name your Species still after "scientific" Pettrade tarantula names!:)
    BTW, not all of the large suppliers works in this way. Some of them work together with the tarantula systematist to get the right names, if they received a new import!

    Cheers, Volker
     
  10. LaRiz

    LaRiz Arachnodemon Old Timer

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    Volker,
    HAH! :D I sent you a private email explaining as best as I can.

    Haploplema albobarbatum-that would make a good trivia question for "Theraphosid Jeopardy".
    I was wondering how Schmidt felt after you named the species in his honor. Sounds like he may have not liked it.

    Thanks Volker, for the insight on Cyriopagopus thorelli here in the US.
    john
     
  11. VolkervonWirth

    VolkervonWirth Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Hi,

    no, he was surprised and he felt honored! If you mean why we have a bad relationship today, that has something to do with his way of systematic work and his way to describe species.
    In the last years I've spend my time to learn all I can get about the principles of zoological Systematic and Phylogeny and I've learned that Schmidt uses a second hand way of taxonomic work.Within the professional Systematist, such Guys called "Typologists", because they often describe Species from one specimen (usually the Typespecimen), so they can't ascertain the variation of characters. Because of this, it is usually nearly impossible to recognize the Species- boundaries from one Species to the next relatives! Schmidt still works like a Taxonomist from 1850 and he badly describes Species like an assembly belt! That's the reason why I (and a lot of arachnologist as well) am very angry about him!

    Cheers, Volker
     
  12. Botar

    Botar Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Vegas has the odds at 3 to 1...

    ...on Volker over Schmidt in the Arachno-smackdown this Friday on pay per view. Anyone want in on the action?

    All kidding aside Volker, I for one REALLY appreciate not only the work you are doing, but the time you spend on this site to educate the laymen out here.
     
  13. petitegreeneyes

    petitegreeneyes Arachnoprince Old Timer

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    Chinese Earth Tiger

    Wow is that a picture of your Chinese Gold, John. She is really quite a vision. And the picture that Volker showed looks just like my Medussa that I bought as a Chinese Black Earth Tiger. But I am confused now as to what the actual scientific name is for my spider.
    I do look forwards to hearing how the cross-breeding of the two colors comes out Volker. I really like my girl and think they are a really unique spider.
    Becky:D
     

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  14. VolkervonWirth

    VolkervonWirth Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Hey Becky,

    your tarantula looks indeed like the blackish form of Haplopelma schmidti , namely the above mentioned Selenocosmia hainana (this is the actual name for her)!

    Cheers, Volker
     
  15. Weapon-X

    Weapon-X Arachnodemon

    re

    WOW!!, now this is why i look for arachnid sites, this is what i beleave arachnopets should be(at least the tarantula threads anyhow), i was previously looking for info on schmidtis thanks very much volker i always appreciate your exsperienced knowledge on such matters, this is great(knowledge is power), and martin h., lariz, and botar i need to thank you fellas for your long term info too, thanks, this makes me feel like now its really worthy to spend my time trying to research here, thanks again, awesome awesome awesme, whooooooo----Jeff
     
  16. Dasgre0g

    Dasgre0g Arachnopeon

    Re: re


    I knew THIS thread above all others would excite you, Jeff.
     
  17. Weapon-X

    Weapon-X Arachnodemon

  18. Brad

    Brad Arachnopeon

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    Haplopelma(Selenocosmia)Chinese Black Earthtiger

    Regardless of what they're called, they are excellent looking.

    I'm looking for males of either the H. schmidti or the Black. If anyone has a line on where I can get any.
     
  19. Joy

    Joy Priestess of Pulchra-tude Old Timer

    Re: Vegas has the odds at 3 to 1...

    Hear, hear!

    Joy
     
  20. AlbinoDragon829

    AlbinoDragon829 Arachnobaron Old Timer

    Re: Vegas has the odds at 3 to 1...

    Ditto