Brown Recluse?

[Talkenlate04]

HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND
alot of Brown Recluse spiders

Miami Cracker if they are everywhere like you claim it won't take long to capture one and submit photos for our viewing pleasure.
I'll hold my breath while I wait.
As for all the "bites" happening at you're work place, that is hard to believe too. I would put getting bit by a recluse and having a reaction worthy of a hospital visit somewhere in the ballpark of getting hit by lightning or winning the lottery.

 

[loxoscelesfear]

I want to see proof of this so called case of 2000 spiders taken from a home. wheres the link for that????

@ Miami
Check the prison library for The Journal of Entomology 39: pages 948-951. An infestation of 2,055 brown recluse spiders (Araneae: Sicariidae) and no envenomations in a Kansas home:implications for bite diagnosis in non-endemic areas.

MRSA is a huge problem in prisons. Although it would seem like recluse would thrive in Florida, their population tends to diminish in coastal areas (i.e., Florida) and most recluse bites are self-healing and do not result in rotting craters in the skin (Vetter 2009, The Distribution of Brown Recluse in the Southeastern Quadrant of the United States in Relation to Loxoscelism Diangnoses, from The Southern Medical Journal).

 

[Noshownate]

all wounds have healed, gonna try and get a magnifying glass and a digi camera. legs i count 8. Will still try and trap some wild spiders for you guy sto identify. just hope i dont find em in my bedroom anymore
the spider is still alive been in ziplock bag for 24 hours dang!

 

[xhexdx]

Miami Cracker if they are everywhere like you claim it won't take long to capture one and submit photos for our viewing pleasure.
I'll hold my breath while I wait.
As for all the "bites" happening at you're work place, that is hard to believe too. I would put getting bit by a recluse and having a reaction worthy of a hospital visit somewhere in the ballpark of getting hit by lightning or winning the lottery.

I agree with this.

MC, catch some, freeze them (to kill them), and mail them to me. If you can't get pics, I can. That, and I want to see them in person.

 

[Dale Marantz]

Brown Recluse ID

Hello
I have lived in south Florida for two decades. In that
time I have only encountered recluse trough the cricket
farms I've delt with.
From that source I was bitten,with possitive ID. I can
only say that has little resemblance to a recluse bite.
Good luck with whatever the cause,and take relief that
your incident has little resemblence to my experience!
Best Regards
Dale

 

[Miami Cracker]

lets see if i can address all these requests....

the test that the "HOSPITAL" used is for specific proteins in the blood.
Venom One is in Miami and they are experts on the treatment of venomous bites from almost anything poisonous.

http://www.miamidade.gov/mdfr/emergency_special_venom.asp

i never said Brown Recluse were native....that being said, remember

BURMESE PYTHONS, B.vagans, Africanized Honey Bees, snake head fish, carp, certain plants, you know i can go on all day with this.....

i asked for the link to the story about 2000 spiders as sarcasm.

as far as catching one and taking pics???? sure i'll just walk in to a prison with a camera or better yet ill get some inmates to do me a favor and "hook me up" (that is not only against the rules but the camera would be ILLEGAL)

im really not into catching something that can kill me.

you know i was just thinking about when i first moved to SW Fla. from Miami.....i had no idea there was a "BROWN WIDOW or a RED WIDOW"
i had only seen a black widow twice in 32 years af living in Miami. (i was not looking for them)
but over in Lehigh my house is full of Brown Widows and the occasional Red Widow. i have only come across 2 Brown Recluse over here (near my house)
but i have seen a few near my prison.

as far as MRSA... out of 1000 inmates with puss filled holes in thier legs 995 would be MRSA 4 will be some other spider or other creature and 1 would be a brown recluse.
i didnt say it was an everyday thing ....i have worked in the prison since 2001 and i have seen the hospital take blood and send it to a lab.....and have seen the results..... MRSA, different flesh eating bacteria,(yeah thats always fun when you have to strip search that one), Black and Brown Widow, (have never heard of a Red widow bite), even seen one guy who had an allergic reaction to a Huntsman bite, as far as Herpes, never seen or heard of it on your leg but .......

im not in a "coastal area" im inland and my prison in in the middle of the state.

dont know the name of any lab test but if someone goes to the hospital with a draining hole in thier body, what do you think the Drs do to determine as the cause??????? and when you ask the inmate what happened and they say " well we was fighting spiders and mine bit me" and you ask " where is the spider"? (its against the rules for inmates to keep anything as a pet)
and they hand you a box with a BROWN RECLUSE in it and when you go to the hospital because you have to...... and the inmate tells the Dr. he got bit by a spider and you give the box to the Dr. and he takes it ??elsewhere and later comes in and says...to the inmate ..."based on your lab results and that spider in the box was a Brown Recluse........ so we are going to treat for a Brown Recluse"...... i tend to believe the inmate was bitten by a Brown Recluse. i learned a little about them, as far as my friend (who was bitten by a Brown Recluse in Miami Springs) and i have learned there is no antivenom for Brown Recluse as there is for Widows. so they treat Recluse bites with massive amount of antibiotics, which put said friend in ICU for about a week.
and he had to wear a box around his neck with a shunt in his chest for a few weeks after ICU to keep the antibiotics at a constant level in his body because HE WAS BITTEN BY A BROWN RECLUSE IN MIAMI.

I have also had inmates that went through the same thing.
thank you for the link to the story about 2000+ in a house (didnt believe but now i do)

i never said anyone was diagnosed as a Recluse bite just by the wound.

Hey talkenlate are you still holding your breath?????

i hope i answered all the Questions but if not let me know and as for getting pics ......i will try, i promise no joking or being a smart alec

i just put my two cents because i know, i have seen with my eyes, not somebody telling me or i heard a story once.

 

[Talkenlate04]

i just put my two cents because i know, i have seen with my eyes, not somebody telling me or i heard a story once.

Sounds like a lot of assuming to me.

im really not into catching something that can kill me.

Hey talkenlate are you still holding your breath?????

Yep.

 

[What]

you know i was just thinking about when i first moved to SW Fla. from Miami.....i had no idea there was a "BROWN WIDOW or a RED WIDOW"
i had only seen a black widow twice in 32 years af living in Miami. (i was not looking for them)
but over in Lehigh my house is full of Brown Widows and the occasional Red Widow.

Umm... afaik L. bishopi is VERY selective about habitats and unless you live in a trailer park in the middle of Palmetto Scrub, you didnt have a bishopi in your house.

Anyways, if you have to remove soo many recluses from the prison anyways, bring in a cup one day, clear it with your boss, and bring it home to take a pic. Then kill/dispose of the spider and post the pics. Ok? Until then, your story is complete BS.

Not to mention that unless I am seriously under read, there is no specific treatment regimen for brown recluse bites...but nice try.

 

[Miami Cracker]

her is some info from the "internet"------(see i can do it too)

as far as the OP......here are some other more likely causes....all of which should be addressed with your Dr. not a bunch of idiots on a blog

The expression of Lyme disease can give the classic 'bull's-eye' patterning characteristic of brown recluse bite. Although Lyme disease is rare in Florida, it does exist and would be a more probable diagnosis than brown recluse bite.
Alternatives to Consider in Suspected Cases of Brown Recluse Bite
Spider bites cause clean infarctions in the skin. If an inflammatory core lesion exists, necrotizing infection should be anticipated, not spider bite. A number of other arthropods and an assortment of diseases, some caused by microorganisms and some with other causes, are known to produce necrotic or apparent pre-necrotic wounds. Vetter (1998) gives a list of causative agents of necrotic wounds (related discussion can be found at the associated website). This list includes most of the following conditions:

Tick-induced: tick bites and tick-borne diseases, such as erythema chronicum migrans (Lyme disease) and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever;
Viral: chronic herpes simplex, infected herpes simplex, herpes zoster (shingles); Bacterial: Gonococcal (G.C.) arthritis dermatitis, Mycobacterium ulcerans, Staphylococcus infection, Streptococcus infection;
Fungal: keratin cell mediated response to a fungus, sporotrichosis;
Blood Disorders: focal vasiculitis, purpura fulminans, thromboembolic phenomena; Underlying Disease States: diabetic ulcer, chronic liver disease (spontaneous necrotizing fasciitis), pyoderma gangrenosum, toxic epidermal necrolysis (Lyells syndrome);
Cancer: leukemia, lymphomatoid papulosis (LyP), lymphoma;
Reaction to Drugs/toxins: alcoholism, erythema nodosum, warfarin and heparin poisoning; opical: chemical burn (e.g., oven cleaner), poison ivy/oak infection;
Miscellaneous/ Multiple Causative: bed sores, erythema multiforme, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, self-inflicted wounds
Unknown Causative Agents: periarteritis nodosa.
Other possibilities include subcutaneous blisters and hives caused by stings of hymenopterous insects (ants, bees, yellowjackets, wasps), welts from urticating caterpillars, bites by predatory or parasitic bugs (assassin bugs, bed bugs), and other parasitic insect bites (black flies, mosquitoes, horse and deer flies, fleas). It is even possible that some as yet untested native spider is the cause of serious necrotic wounds. For example, circumstancial evidence in one case implicated Ctenus captiosus Gertsch (Edwards 1989), a wandering spider, as a cause of a necrotic bite, although a recent assay of the venom of this species did not find sphingomyelinase D (Dr. G. J. Bodner, personal communication, 2001).

Medical Analysis
The following technical analysis is condensed from the medical literature. Persons who suspect they have been victimized by a brown recluse spider bite are strongly encouraged to consult with a physician.

In medical terms (Vetter 1998), bites from Loxosceles can be unremarkable (requiring no care), localized (requiring some care but usually healing without intervention), dermonecrotic (a slow- healing, necrotic ulcerated lesion needing supportive care), or systemic (vascular and renal damage, sometimes life-threatening). Within 10 minutes of venom injection, there is a constriction of capillaries around the site of the bite. A major venom component is sphingomyelinase D which causes hemolysis (destruction of red blood cells). Recluse venom has a strong disruptive effect on endothelial tissue. Polymorphonucleocytes (PMN) are activated (by the patient.s immune system) and infiltrate the bite site; in test animals where PMN activity was suppressed, degree of necrosis was lessened. General symptoms are edema (swelling), erythema (redness caused by blood being brought to the surface to counteract the damage), pruritis (itching), pain at the site, and mild fever. A pruritic or painful eruption can occur within a few hours of the bite and persist for a week, ending with scaling and peeling of the hands, and a truncal papular rash, that recalls pictures of scarlet fever rashes; the pruritis may be worse for the patient than the painful focal necrosis. The skin may feel hot and tender to the patient. It may be advisable to treat the rash and pruritis symptoms with Prednisone (Anderson 1998). Treatment with corticosteroids does not appear to affect either the skin necrosis or the hemolysis (Anderson 1998).

Dermatologic expression varies. In mild self-healing wounds, the bite site may not progress past an edematous erythema; these wounds do not become necrotic and non-intrusive care is sufficient. In more serious wounds, a sinking blue-gray macule on the skin contains a "bull's- eye" pattern formation where a central erythematous bleb (blister) is separated from a peripheral cyanotic region by a white zone of induration (red-white-blue). If the bite becomes violaceous within the first few hours, this usually indicates that severe necrosis may occur and more supportive measures are necessary.

The initial bleb gives way to ischemia (localized temporary blood deficiency). A central eschar (hardened scab similar to that made after burns) forms, hardens, and within seven to 14 days the eschar falls out leaving behind an ulcerated depression. The necrosis may continue to spread from the bite site possibly due to an autoimmune response (see above). Normally, the wound limits begin to recede after one week as healing begins. Unnecessary removal of tissue often leads to greater scarring than would result from normal healing. Extirpation of damaged skin is only recommended in severe cases and only after the limits of the wound are strongly demarcated at six to eight weeks. Most wounds self-heal with excellent results.

Systemic conditions that might manifest in severe cases are hematoglobinuria (hemoglobin in the urine), hematoglobinemia (reduction of useful hemoglobin, resulting in anemia-like condition), thrombocytopenia (reduction of clotting platelets in the blood), and/or disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC) (precipitation of platelets causing mini-clots all over the body). The presence of sustained coagulopathy with hemolysis indicates severe systemic loxoscelism. Fortunately, less than 1% of cases exhibit these symptoms. Although rare, if death occurs, it is most often from hemolysis, renal failure and DIC; children are most adversely affected due to their small body mass. Anderson (1998) noted, however, that none of the fatalities were proven to have been caused by a brown recluse spider.
Typical symptoms are as follows: Symptoms start two to six hours after the bite. Blisters frequently appear at the bite site, accompanied by severe pain and pronounced swelling. A common expression is the formation of a reddish blister, surrounded by a bluish area, with a narrow whitish separation between the red and blue, giving a "bull's-eye" pattern. By 12 to 24 hours, it is usually apparent if a Loxosceles wound is going to become necrotic because it turns purple in color; if necrotic symptoms do not express by 48 to 96 hours, then they will not develop. If the skin turns purple, it will then turn black as cells die. Eventually the necrotic core falls away, leaving a deep pit that gradually fills with scar tissue.

all of the above can be found just by googleing......

i never said the OP had a Recluse bite, all i sad was for TRAXFISH to not give medical advise and not discount something when there is evidence to the contrary so with that said ...

There are Brown Recluse Spiders in South Florida. There have been Recluse bites in South Florida. and if the OP thinks it is a Recluse ..GO TO THE HOSPITAL AND FIND OUT.

 

[Miami Cracker]

to talkenlate ....how do you figure?? "Sounds like a lot of assuming to me. "
An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts.

fact-- i was there. what part of my beingthere would be an assumption???

 

[xhexdx]

This is fun...

not a bunch of idiots on a blog

Where is the blog where idiots are giving him medical advice?

There are Brown Recluse Spiders in South Florida. There have been Recluse bites in South Florida. and if the OP thinks it is a Recluse ..GO TO THE HOSPITAL AND FIND OUT.

If this is the case, I'm sure there are papers on it. I'd like to see one.

All I asked for was a picture of the spider. You say they're around your house, so go catch one.

Oh, and last I checked, they're not exactly deadly unless you're young or old. Which are you? And why should you worry, anyway? Venom One is right there to save you...

fact-- i was there. what part of my beingthere would be an assumption???

Perhaps that you know how to properly identify a recluse? Or that the doctor knows how?

I could go on...

And I should mention I'm not trying to be a jerk (although people tend to take it that way), but I'm trying to get some sort of PROOF out of this whole thing.

 

[Miami Cracker]

Umm... afaik L. bishopi is VERY selective about habitats and unless you live in a trailer park in the middle of Palmetto Scrub, you didnt have a bishopi in your house.

Anyways, if you have to remove soo many recluses from the prison anyways, bring in a cup one day, clear it with your boss, and bring it home to take a pic. Then kill/dispose of the spider and post the pics. Ok? Until then, your story is complete BS.

Not to mention that unless I am seriously under read, there is no specific treatment regimen for brown recluse bites...but nice try.

specific treatment of Brown Recluse bite.......Massive regiment of antibiotics


there is no clearing it with my boss...catching a spider in a prison, and taking it home believe it or not could get me in trouble.

do you live in Lehigh Acres.?????? I do .... I dont live in a trailer but i do have all kinds of Palm scrub around my house sooooo.......

 

[Widowman10]

Where is the blog where idiots are giving him medical advice?

i'm hoping this isn't the "blog." there are TONS of people here on this site that know a lot more than many doctors. docs are good in some areas, spiders are generally not that area.

and joe, this is fun

or something...

 

[What]

specific treatment of Brown Recluse bite.......Massive regiment of antibiotics

do you live in Lehigh Acres.?????? I do .... I dont live in a trailer but i do have all kinds of Palm scrub around my house sooooo.......

Ah, well...knowing what I do about the habitat they like, I still dont believe they would be in your house(unless maybe a male got *very* lost).

 

[Miami Cracker]

XHEN--- i know your not being a jerk (ive seen your post from along time)

like i said i will try to get a pic or a body for you
as far as IDing a recluse -------the violin------
and when i am in the ER with an inmate and the Dr. sends pics to whoever and says it a Recluse (because he has a specimen that i brought him)
so yes i can and so can a doctor .....and ..... we have memos on the inmate info boards that have pics of Recluses so the inmates can stay away from them (lol thats funny ...its an inside joke)

and i know somebody is going to say just take the one you bring to the ER.
i cant its called evidence.... i know it sounds stupid but its true. we can discipkline an inmate for it. sooo.......

and as for idiots giving medical advise........Traxfish starts coming up with other things it could be rather than tell the OP if you think its a spider bite and cant think of any other reason you have that gross looking leison on your leg GO TO THE DOCTOR

and my friend who got bit was around 25 years old he just had a bad reaction and as far as my inmates its usally just a leaking hole and maybe some other things like sweats , shortness of breath tightening of the chest and this is in healthy men. never said the bite was always deadly as a matter of fact i dont think i used the word deadly at all soo....

 

[Widowman10]

as far as IDing a recluse -------the violin------

hope that you are looking for the 3 diads also. to someone who is not familiar, other spiders can be mistaken. loxosceles are distinct though with 3 diads.

 

[Miami Cracker]

Not 2000 in 1 day like you clowns say but 2055 in over a 6 month period...
i guess you only retain what info you deem fit for your arguement but the problem is it was bogus info.....

sucks to be you

 

[xhexdx]

May I direct you to this subforum? You may want to read it before you get yourself suspended.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/forumdisplay.php?f=28

EDIT: Too late...

 

[loxoscelesfear]

I WOULD RATHER ARGUE MORALS WITH A CATHOLIC PRIEST

lol pretty funny

The debate is simple: recluse distribution. It's not impossible for some recluse to be in southern Florida, but, southern Florida, according to the literature, is not even close to their natural range. This is a spider forum, so some disagreements should be expected if one is seeing a spider in an area that it normally shouldn't reside in. Don't take it personal, it's all good.

 

[traxfish]

We seem to have a troll on our hands.

next ? ...are you a doctor? if not dont tell people what you think a hole in thier leg is, because you dont know or have a clue(obviously).

i never said the OP had a Recluse bite, all i sad was for TRAXFISH to not give medical advise and not discount something when there is evidence to the contrary so with that said ...

No where did I claim medical expertise, nor is there anything suggested that my words was medical advice. I didn't even claim I knew what that was, just what it could be. My claim was and still is that the mark on the OP's leg could have been any number of issues, and it really doesn't make any sense to assume it is a brown recluse bite. I didn't say he shouldn't go see a doctor (in fact, a lot of those ailments I listed unquestionably warrant a visit to the doctor). Yet you blast me as a "moron" and all the other "bunch of idiots on a blog" in this forum.

As far as list of ailments that can be easily misdiagnosed as recluse bites, I didn't "come up with" them. My source is Rick Vetter, which is sad because it seems to be your only source as well, other than a vague link to a Miami Venom Response Program that doesn't seem to offer any real evidence of confirming that brown recluses have even been found in southern Florida.
http://spiders.ucr.edu/necrotic.html

You claim that you see many, many recluses in the prison you work at in southern Florida, but can't seem to be able to supply any. I wonder why?

and i know somebody is going to say just take the one you bring to the ER. i cant its called evidence.... i know it sounds stupid but its true. we can discipkline an inmate for it. sooo.......

dont know the name of any lab test but if someone goes to the hospital with a draining hole in thier body, what do you think the Drs do to determine as the cause??????? and when you ask the inmate what happened and they say " well we was fighting spiders and mine bit me" and you ask " where is the spider"? (its against the rules for inmates to keep anything as a pet) and they hand you a box with a BROWN RECLUSE in it and when you go to the hospital because you have to...... and the inmate tells the Dr. he got bit by a spider and you give the box to the Dr. and he takes it ??elsewhere and later comes in and says...to the inmate ..."based on your lab results and that spider in the box was a Brown Recluse........ so we are going to treat for a Brown Recluse"...... i tend to believe the inmate was bitten by a Brown Recluse. i learned a little about them, as far as my friend (who was bitten by a Brown Recluse in Miami Springs) and i have learned there is no antivenom for Brown Recluse as there is for Widows. so they treat Recluse bites with massive amount of antibiotics, which put said friend in ICU for about a week.
and he had to wear a box around his neck with a shunt in his chest for a few weeks after ICU to keep the antibiotics at a constant level in his body because HE WAS BITTEN BY A BROWN RECLUSE IN MIAMI.

Contradict yourself much?