Brown recluse problems

[hardlucktattoo]

i guess ill go hunting for it today i was gonna wait until after it rained for them to come to me but if everyone is so anxious i will go hunting i am sending it out to pitbulllady asap i just have to catch one first

 

[Lizamphid]

Surely if there have been reported cases of people being admitted to hospital with suspected recluse bites in North carolina, then this would be documented under hospital portocol. In order to be able to administer anti-venom treatment and in some cases surgical procedures then for legal reasons and medical insurance purposes this would also surely have to be heavily documented. Therefore identifcation of the Brown Recluse should already be documented somewhere or somehow as existing in North Carolina.

 

[buthus]

Surely if there have been reported cases of people being admitted to hospital with suspected recluse bites in North carolina, then this would be documented under hospital portocol. In order to be able to administer anti-venom treatment and in some cases surgical procedures then for legal reasons and medical insurance purposes this would also surely have to be heavily documented. Therefore identifcation of the Brown Recluse should already be documented somewhere or somehow as existing in North Carolina.

You wouldnt want to trust medical records. Research into records have shown that over the years as doctors and patients have become aware of recluse spiders and their supposive symptoms the majority of new bite reports have been coming from regions outside the species range. ...often far outside the range. "Recluse bite" had become a catch-all diagnoses for small necrotic wounds.
Without the spider, a prick on the elbow in the middle of the night doesnt prove anything spider related.

 

[pitbulllady]

Surely if there have been reported cases of people being admitted to hospital with suspected recluse bites in North carolina, then this would be documented under hospital portocol. In order to be able to administer anti-venom treatment and in some cases surgical procedures then for legal reasons and medical insurance purposes this would also surely have to be heavily documented. Therefore identifcation of the Brown Recluse should already be documented somewhere or somehow as existing in North Carolina.

Here is my response to another thread on the "True Spiders and Other Arachnids" section, made just today, that addresses this situation, and why medical records would be a very, very unreliable way to "verify" the existence of "Brown Recluses" in any particular area:

...A LOT, and I mean a LOT, of various medical issues are blamed on "Brown Recluse" bite or "spider bites" in general. Unless you actually SEE the spider bite you, there's really no way to be absolutely sure, and there are many, many skin lesions that can mimic the effects of a spider bite, including things as mundane as ingrown hairs. Recently, a guy on Deviant Art corresponded to me about his "Brown Recluse" bite, and he had someone video a treatment of his in a doctor's office, during which the doctor removed a small white object from a small round hole in the guy's arm and placed the object on a cloth, where it could clearly be seen MOVING. The doctor told him the wound was caused by a Brown Recluse, and that the object he removed was a "concentration of venom". It was obviously a Human Botfly larva, and I've removed similar maggots from under the skin of dogs on many occasion, and had them crawl out of the skin of game animals I'd shot to eat...sorta make you change your mind about that venison stew! The guy was far more horrified to learn that he actually had a maggot living under his skin and eating his flesh than to think he'd been bitten by a spider! It goes to show, though, how many doctors just make a diagnosis of "spider bite" when they really have no clue what they're looking at.

Without actually SEEING the spider that did the biting, AND having it reliably identified, there is simply no way to make a definitive diagnosis of a spider bite, when there are so many conditions that have the same symptoms, AND so many doctors who know absolutely NOTHING about spiders or spider venom. Doctors have a tendency to label any skin lesion that they cannot readily pinpoint the cause of as a "spider bite", especially if it doesn't respond to conventional treatments. Since many bacteria are becoming antibiotic-resistant, doctors encounter more and more skin lesions that do NOT respond to that treatment, and consequently simply change the diagnosis to "spider bite".

pitbulllady

pitbulllady

 

[Hamburglar]

I heard from a venom specialist that only 20% of bites from brown recluse have a severe reaction. He said that the rest have minimal effects. I have not personally confirmed this... maybe those who are more informed can weigh in on it.

 

[buthus]

I heard from a venom specialist that only 20% of bites from brown recluse have a severe reaction. He said that the rest have minimal effects. I have not personally confirmed this... maybe those who are more informed can weigh in on it.

20% of which bites? :?
You mean 20 out of the 100 people that had a recluse induced to bite them on the arm and then held under close observation for a week in a sterile/controlled environment developed necrotic wounds in and around the bite area? Those bites?
:wall:


edit:I couldnt understand what the heck I was sayin'.

 

[Hamburglar]

He was explaining that only 20% of the people admitted to the hospital for recluse bites had the necrosis. However, he didn't give any other details like if they were confirmed or any standards used or anything. He seemed smart though.. he is a doctor who flies around the southwest treating severe invenomations. Some of you have probably seen him on tv..

 

[Hamburglar]

Actually, he didn't say "those admitted to the hospital" he just said 20% of recluse bites in general......

 

[buthus]

Actually, he didn't say "those admitted to the hospital" he just said 20% of recluse bites in general......

So.. you dont see the problem with that statistic and conclusions made from it?

However, he didn't give any other details like if they were confirmed or any standards used or anything. He seemed smart though..

He seems gullible enough. :clap:

 

[Hamburglar]

Oh give me a break... I didn't say I agreed with him.. I didn't say he was correct.. and I sure didn't say whether I did or didn't have a problem with it. I was just putting it out there for others to digest. He didn't exactly have time to show all of his peer reviewed journals. However, if you are asking me if I trust a medical doctor with years of experience more than a nickname like "hamburglar" on a computer.... yes.... I do.

 

[8+)]

FWIW, I remember reading in the the Golden Guide, "There may be no reaction at all." I have no idea how that statement is substantiated.

 

[buthus]

Oh give me a break...

Jeeeese .. Read this sentence...

So.. you dont see the problem with that statistic and conclusions made from it?

Notice the question mark at the end of it. It sends the ball back into your court leaving you with countless options of play ...a bucket full of potential breaks.

I didn't say I agreed with him..

And there ya go ...thats one. :clap:




8+) ...I know..I do need to get back to you regarding that other stuff ...I will. :wall:

FWIW, I remember reading in the the Golden Guide, "There may be no reaction at all." I have no idea how that statement is substantiated.

Heres what it is... most of the time.
Person spots a spider in/around/under their bed ..maybe couple times. It haunts them cause they are afraid of spiders. One morning he/she wakes up and finds a bedbug bite or some other prick from the day before on their arm or wherever. Then he gos through the potential culprits ..which really comes down to one, because he cant think of any other reason for the little red dot on his arm except for that darn spider that hangs around.
He tells a friend that day and shows the "bite". Friend has been aware of the "brown recluse problem" for some time now because his mother was attacked all the time when they were growing up. Friend informs him with added gruesome details of what can happen with recluse bites. He goes home that night and does a google search "brown recluse" and comes across some GRUESOME images posted ONCE AGAIN on Arachnoboards .. no time to read further...this could be serious!! He has a hot date next week... cant have his arm rotting away!
So he heads to the local clinic early the next morning and Dr Smith takes a look at the "wound" which doesn't seem to be drying out to start scabbing over yet. He tells the doctor that he thinks it was from a spider that he has seen around his bed. Dr Smith keeps up with this stuff because he cant sleep much anyway because of all the narcotics he takes to ...stay on top of things.
"Was it a small brown spider?" asks Dr Smith. ...Dr Smith feels hes really onto something..:drool: He replies "yes, it was small and brown ..with skinny legs. ...could it be a brown accused spider?" "Good chance it is."explains Dr Smith.
Meanwhile while they ponder the enemy the "wound" starts to dry out and the slight redness around it just starts to become less inflamed because getting out to see the Doctor and moving around a bit ...away from the bed, couch and puter chair with the bowl of cheetos next to it ...got hes circulation going a bit better bringing oxygen and cells to the wound area.
Dr Smith cleans the "bite" makes out a prescription for antibiotics and whatnot. "Sometimes ...There may be no reaction at all." says Dr Smith while burping out some more of his extensive knowledge on spider bites. "We will just have to wait and see what happens. " This makes our hero feel better..at least hes got a chance.
So there ya have it. A case of a reclusa bite with no real reaction at all. This, substantiated by the credible Dr Smith ..approved, stamped and put on file ..available to those researchers wanting to continue making stuff up.

 

[ErgoProxy]

I have to agree with all the comments relating to the number of "recluse" bites reported, outside of recluse range.

I was interviewed for a local news broadcast a few years ago. As it turned out they wanted to know about recluses, wanted to see one (I had a preserved one I collected in recluse range) and also what the range was (chances of them being rampant in this area). Granted they do have a native distribution about 250 to 300 miles away from this area, but to DATE no one has found and had one correctly identified in this State. So I told them all of this, and what a native habitat would be (outside of our buildings) but always steering them away from saying they were here.

Turns out someone went into an ER with a "necrotic" type of wound and the LOVELY ER doctor said RECLUSE BITE! But the guy didn't recall ANY bite, but supposed a few days past when he was working on a wood pile in his yard.

And what does the news cast open as..."DANGEROUS SPIDERS SHOWING UP LOCALLY"......BRILLIANT!!!!!

They used actually footage of me, taken out of context to seemingly SUPPORT the diagnosis.

Is that to say that a local population couldn't get established in some houses by accidental import? Of course not. It's happened to a friend of mine when he moved back North and out of recluse range from the southern mid-west. He found one in a box of his stuff (and since he was a student in a lab section I was teaching he KNEW what a recluse really looked like).

And it also happened in the 1950's with a much worse Loxosceles from South America, in the Boston area I believe (but the infestations were eradicated).

Does this mean an expansion though of the native range to the point where they will show up in larger numbers in many surrounding areas? Doubtful.


Oh and I do not believe they need counterpressure to produce a bite, not the way their chelicerae work.

Cheers...

 

[Hamburglar]

Man I wish I was as smart as everyone else on these boards...... :worship:

 

[8+)]

Heres what it is... most of the time.
Person spots a spider in/around/under their bed ..maybe couple times. It haunts them cause they are afraid of spiders. One morning he/she wakes up and finds a bedbug bite or some other prick from the day before on their arm or wherever. Then he gos through the potential culprits ..which really comes down to one, because he cant think of any other reason for the little red dot on his arm except for that darn spider that hangs around.
He tells a friend that day and shows the "bite". Friend has been aware of the "brown recluse problem" for some time now because his mother was attacked all the time when they were growing up. Friend informs him with added gruesome details of what can happen with recluse bites. He goes home that night and does a google search "brown recluse" and comes across some GRUESOME images posted ONCE AGAIN on Arachnoboards .. no time to read further...this could be serious!! He has a hot date next week... cant have his arm rotting away!
So he heads to the local clinic early the next morning and Dr Smith takes a look at the "wound" which doesn't seem to be drying out to start scabbing over yet. He tells the doctor that he thinks it was from a spider that he has seen around his bed. Dr Smith keeps up with this stuff because he cant sleep much anyway because of all the narcotics he takes to ...stay on top of things.
"Was it a small brown spider?" asks Dr Smith. ...Dr Smith feels hes really onto something..:drool: He replies "yes, it was small and brown ..with skinny legs. ...could it be a brown accused spider?" "Good chance it is."explains Dr Smith.
Meanwhile while they ponder the enemy the "wound" starts to dry out and the slight redness around it just starts to become less inflamed because getting out to see the Doctor and moving around a bit ...away from the bed, couch and puter chair with the bowl of cheetos next to it ...got hes circulation going a bit better bringing oxygen and cells to the wound area.
Dr Smith cleans the "bite" makes out a prescription for antibiotics and whatnot. "Sometimes ...There may be no reaction at all." says Dr Smith while burping out some more of his extensive knowledge on spider bites. "We will just have to wait and see what happens. " This makes our hero feel better..at least hes got a chance.
So there ya have it. A case of a reclusa bite with no real reaction at all. This, substantiated by the credible Dr Smith ..approved, stamped and put on file ..available to those researchers wanting to continue making stuff up.

Very entertaining! However, since I've had this particular copy (Actually it's "Spiders And Their Kin a Golden Guide", but same difference.) since 1970 or so, I don't think that's exactly how they arrived at their conclusion! I've miss-placed it at the moment, so can't tell you the date of my edition, but since I received it at five years old, I've probably read it a couple hundred times. Not to say that something similar, but more pertinent to the era didn't happen...

 

[ErgoProxy]

Well it is possible to have no reaction from a recluse bite, with out without treatment. One possibility is a dry bite. The other is the way your system reacted to the tissue destroying venom.

I recall while in grad school, one of my semester past students gave me a call late one night, saying his fiance was bitten on the inner thigh by a brown recluse (he as one of the brighter students so he recalled what they looked like...I made sure all the students in the lab could identify a living recluse, and black widows, from similar spiders, since both were native to the area). As tempted as I was to say to him "tell her you have to get down in that area and suck out the poison, , I knew this could be serious. I told her to take her into a local ER and most likely they would give her antibiotic treatments, and localized steroid shots (since there is no anti-venom for this species). That is what they did and she had practically no reaction (at least no big spreading, necrotic wound).

I read some time in the past that some suspected that while the recluse does have a tissue destroying venom, that the really bad wounds are actually complications of bacterial infections, possibly brought along with the bite. This could account for some of the varying reactions seen.

Heck, I had a minor necrosis with a lymphatic infection beginning (didn't even know either was there, other than a blister) with the nice red line appearing to move away from the wound up the hand a bit....and that was from a Deerfly bite, something that normally does not occur with them. Possibly "dirty" mouthparts.


Something I've been pondering though, with talk of accidental introductions...with the popularity of online auctions, such as eBay, will we be possibly seeing spread of species, like the recluse, into areas it normally doesn't range. It's theoretically possible that someone sending you a package off a won bid from say, Texas, could use on old box or some newspapers for packing that were not checked very well and you get a little "hitchhiker" along with your online acquired "treasure"....just a though.

 

[Tokendog]

LOL, I realize this is a dying thread apparently, but Recluses are common where I live. Very common. We get the big suckers too. I live in Louisiana in the southern part near New Orleans and I've seen seven or eight of them in the last two years in my apartment.

I can't have the place heavily coated in pesticides because of my Ts, so we just make sure to check our shoes, the sheets, and box flaps whenever we're moving around to avoid any bites.

I agree with the OP though that they do seem to come out after it rains. I grew up in Louisiana so I am used to Recluses, never been bit, but I know that the little suckers live in trees most of the time and probably get washed off/flooded out whenever it rains...and they just so happen to find your home as a high ground.

Usually when you get bit you have to get lanced and it will usually leave a small scar. I have a couple friends who have been bit - nothing major, no major necrosis, etc. just little dimples where the fangs punctured.

I am still very wary around my apartment - especially after a heavy rain.

 

[8+)]

...but I know that the little suckers live in trees most of the time and probably get washed off/flooded out whenever it rains...and they just so happen to find your home as a high ground.

Not sure where you got this notion. They are very successful as "house spiders". I haven't heard of them living up in trees, but I could be wrong?

I once lived in a basement apartment and never saw them. Until I moved out that is. Then I discovered them living in the between the mattress and pan of my water bed. I slept with them for years I guess, and never got bitten that I know of!

 

[Tokendog]

Not sure where you got this notion. They are very successful as "house spiders". I haven't heard of them living up in trees, but I could be wrong?

I once lived in a basement apartment and never saw them. Until I moved out that is. Then I discovered them living in the between the mattress and pan of my water bed. I slept with them for years I guess, and never got bitten that I know of!

I have found them in the spaces of bark on pine and oak trees and also they do tend to live in lumber stacks or old piles of wood. You are right that they do quite well inside of a home - in the dark recesses where Humans do not often go - such as underneath a sink, floor boards, under the frame of your bed, etc. but this of course is not the natural "habitat" but just some thing that is suitable.

I mainly meant that rain is probably responsible for the influx of new Recluses in to someone's home as the ones that had previously been living outside are forced to flee the water and end up in your home on occasion. I am no expert on this though - only stating what I have seen throughout my life in an area that is known to be infested with them.

For example, in Houma, where I live, I have lived in two different locations. One was not near any type of trees and I never EVER saw a single Brown Recluse. I lived there for 12 years. I moved in to my apartment 2 years ago and have seen eight of them easily - alive - this is not including the ones that I have caught on glue traps which I stopped placing last year. I am sure if I placed more of them I'd probably catch a few more. My apartment is surrounded by trees, mainly Pine, and I have noticed a huge increase in the amount of Recluses i have seen. It could just be a higher concentration of them in this area by chance, but I have told repeatedidly growing up in Louisiana that Recluses tend to live near trees/wooded areas, and I have seen higher concentration in such areas first hand...Not arguing or anything, just sharing my experiences...

I too have never been bit but they are very alert and definitely have a good sense of vibration detection as they can sense me the moment I step foot on the floor within five feet or so of them and respond to me approaching. I have also noticed they do not seem to like carpet. I have both carpet and tile in my house and all eight of the live ones I have seen have been found on the tile. I have never seen one on carpet...I figure they dislike the fibers or some thing?

 

[Brian S]

Howdy!!

I have a great solution for Brown Recluse spiders (Loxosceles reclusa)

As most of you all know, I keep a pretty big inventory of scorpions. It just so happens that scorpions love these spiders

In other words, these spiders are in great danger when I find them in my home LOLOL