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Brachypelma Polymorphism?

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by Odessa13, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. Odessa13

    Odessa13 Arachnopeon

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    Question to the experts! Why does one hell of adult females have different color chelicera and karapas? Is it a Polymorphism within a species ?!
    This female 9 year old chelicera color is black
    [​IMG]
    And this female 10 year old chelicera color is red
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Ungoliant

    Ungoliant Malleus Aranearum Staff Member

    Which species of Brachypelma are they? Is there a chance one may be a hybrid?
     
  3. Odessa13

    Odessa13 Arachnopeon

    This is one kind, no, these are not hybrids, they have been bought for a long time and from reliable sources, I am interested in the difference in color chelicera from them! Therefore, I ask, can anyone know why such a difference in color?
     
  4. Phormic28

    Phormic28 Arachnoangel Active Member

    There could be a small chance that they are hybrids. What did the seller label them as species wise?
     
  5. Versijewels

    Versijewels Arachnopeon Active Member

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    Looks like boehemi to me.
     
  6. sdsnybny

    sdsnybny Arachnogeek Arachnosupporter

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  7. Ultum4Spiderz

    Ultum4Spiderz Arachnoking Active Member

    I’ve seen fading colors before but that a bit extreme possibly that specimen has a pigment issue or something. Maybe not even a different species?
    Get a pic next molt maybe?
     
  8. AnObeseHippo

    AnObeseHippo Arachnoknight Active Member

    Hybridism is the likely answer, unfortunately. What species are they?
     
  9. boina

    boina Lady of the mites Arachnosupporter

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    They are Brachypelma boehmei and/or baumgarteni. Both species look very similar and have been hybridized extensively, leading to color variations in the offspring.
     
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  10. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    The one with the distinct orange stripe on the chelicerae may very well be Aphonopelma bicoloratum. After checking several pictures of A. bicoloratum on Google- yes, I am ashamed I had to resort to that, but A. bicoloratum is easily distinguished visually from Brachypelma boehmei :bag:- you see that some have the same stripe. A good overhead shot of both tarantulas where the entire spider is in focus will give a clue as to whether the one with the chelicerae stripe is A. bicoloratum. Compared to Brachypelma, Aphonopelma species have a carapace that is longer than wide where Brachypelma species have a carapace where the length and width is more or less the same.
     
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  11. Tenebrarius

    Tenebrarius Arachnosquire Active Member

    hybrids is the answer especially with most brachypelma species, I suspect even my B. hamorii is hybridized since its carapace resembles that of a B. emilia, cant tell yet, I will try and document the next molt, but those Ts look like B. boehmei to me.
     
  12. Ultum4Spiderz

    Ultum4Spiderz Arachnoking Active Member

    Maybe I never thought of that one!!!

    That’s a. Species I always wanted but still have none of this genus sadly. A Anax died after 14 years and a bad molt was probably 16-20 years old. Bought at 2” so slow growth, sucks when you got none of such a good genus.
     
  13. Odessa13

    Odessa13 Arachnopeon

    Clear ! We sold them as Brachypelma boehmei and at that time no one bred them in our country in 2008–2009, and there were no hybrids at least within the country. In Europe, it is possible.
    I bought them as Brachypelma boehmei and the seller warned me that these are old females, in the Genius Brachypelma branch on this forum there are also photos of females with different helicera colors, and all of them sign as Brachypelma boehmei, and not some hybrids.

    Aphonopelma bicoloratum I also have! The female is over 10 years old, the exact age is unknown!
    An adulta female is 3 times smaller than Brachypelma, so this is out of the question, and the color is different too!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I ask the staff members to connect those who understand the genius and will be able to accurately give information whether it is polymorphism or not.
    By the way, read what polymorphism is in general.
     
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  14. Tenebrarius

    Tenebrarius Arachnosquire Active Member

    I only understand polymorphism on a genetics level, pretty much just genetic variation within a population or species. I know that a seemanni has different "morphs" depending on the area it's from so the relative location of where the boehmei is could create minor pigment variations. BUT normally this happens from different populations of the same species, but boehmei is native to mexico in one general area of Guerrero, such a lack of diversity and environmental change might be too small to cause a phenotypical difference. Honestly I wouldn't know unless I went over there and observed the species color pattern based on different local populations. So if they were wild caught it might bring an interesting question, but otherwise likely hybrid, unless Guerrero has enough land diversity to cause variations and the populations are separate.
     
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  15. Exoskeleton Invertebrates

    Exoskeleton Invertebrates Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Even reliable source can carry hybrids. Not every seller gets the chance to see photos of the parents of each offsprings.

    The poster’s specimen is not bicoloratum.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2018
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  16. boina

    boina Lady of the mites Arachnosupporter

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    That doesn't make any sense. So you say no one in your country actively hybridized them? Well, ok, but where did the first breeders in your country get their stock from? Did they go and catch them in the wild and smuggle them to your country? Or did they go and import them from the well established German breeders? I think the second option is much more likely.

    Now in the 1990s, and even earlier, the German breeders had several projects going about Brachypelma hybridization. They actively crossed a wide range of Brachypelma species and documented how the offspring looked. Most of the German breeders were involved in that, because they thought it was a really good and 'scientific' idea. Once the real scientific community cought on and told them to stop they kind of got embarrased and stopped and pretended it never happened but it is pretty well known in the better informed German tarantula keeper circles that it is practically impossible to get a Brachypelma in Germany that hasn't been been hybridized with something or other. B. boehmei was actually one of the main species of those hybridization 'experiments'. Peter Klaas, of B. klaasi fame, even described those experiments in his first, and by now pretty outdated, book. B. boemei has been cross bred with practically every red legged Brachypelma in Europe in the 1990s.

    What I'm saying: Any B. 'boehmei' in Europe is likely to originate from the early German breeding stock and is likely to have been hybridized at some point or other, whether you like that fact or not.

    Other known Brachypelma hybridizations in Europe: B. hamorii in Europe often gets much bigger than the purer stock overseas because they have been cross bred with the larger B. smithi.

    That doesn't mean anything. It only means that the owners think they have a B. boehmei.
     
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  17. Odessa13

    Odessa13 Arachnopeon

    You certainly excuse me, but where are the German breeders, and their dull affairs with the hybridization of species.
    Spiders from Africa were directly transported to our country, Theraphosa females were taken from Vnesuela, so why couldn’t there be theoretically direct supplies from America? lol
    Of course, I will not argue that these animals came to us directly from America, but what the hell is not joking)
    In any case, I see photos of American keeper with exactly the same differences in the color of body parts, as in my photos, what do all the hybrids have?
    As it is hard to believe in it.
    In any case, there are holotypes describing the species, on which all morphological features can be compared, and to confirm the validity of the species or to disprove it.

    Thank you for your detailed response!
    Perhaps you are right, it is a pity that there are no typical photos of this species, from its habitats! I hope that someone will clarify these issues in the future. Because if in America they don’t know exactly whether a hybrid is or not a hybrid, and there is not enough data to understand what is really going on, I personally don’t think that these are hybrids, now in recent years all line B.boehmei. breeding is a have black color helicera, and with red color there are only old females in the collections.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  18. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    But there are pictures of B. boehmei in its natural habitat! Judging by what I found, both Brachypelma boehmei and Aphonopelma bicoloratum can exhibit the orange stripe on the chelicerae. Since the photos linked to below are from nature and/ or a reputable source, I think it is safe to say orange cheliceral stripes are a natural occurrence and not a result of hybridization in captivity. I can not provide a good hypothesis as to the "why" this happens though.

    Male Brachypelma boehmei w/ orange cheliceral stripe by Jorge Mendoza from iNaturalist.org
    Click Here for Photo

    Aphonopelma bicoloratum w/ orange cheliceral stripe by Tarantulas de Mexico
    Click Here for Photo
    Click Here for Image Gallery on Web Site

    Again, using Google image search I found more pictures of Aphonopelma bicoloratum with the stripe than Brachypelma boehmei which is why I question the species in the picture in this thread.
     
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  19. Odessa13

    Odessa13 Arachnopeon

    Thank you! I also thought it worth contacting the Mexicans, and specifically with Mendoza to clarify the issue in this vein.
    I have no doubt that my animals are not hybrids, since I saw hybrids, and many of their variations, we are not fools here in our country either, and we sit and study tarantulas in all their beauty and aspects!
    I also think that the red healers are a pure natural line, but black is already a hobby of forms, or because of mating with cn species!
    There is also no doubt that I did not confuse Brachypelma with Aphonopelma , since Brachypelma is 3 times larger in size than Aphonopelma - there is no problem with that.
     
  20. c.h.esteban

    c.h.esteban Arachnosquire

    ...just two examles for natural differences in color.


    Vilchis-Nestor et al. (2013) Morphological and Color Differences between Island and Mainland Populations in the Mexican Red Rump Tarantula, Brachypelma vagans (DOI:10.1673/031.013.9501)

    Theraphosinae sp. (siblings)
    [​IMG]
     
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