black widow vs brown recluse

[JPD]

i went widow hunting one night at the last place i lived at and found over 30 of them in the backyard. i couldn't believe there were that many of them there

Sounds like heaven to me!

 

[JPD]

Btw................I am not liking the exaggerated syndromes that many of you speak of with regard to envenomation and the subsequent results.
Perhaps many of the posts should be prefaced with "Worst Case Scenario."

L reclusa infess my house. i once did a study and went to my basement, 10 min. later i had 9 recluses. I was bitten once in my sleep(cant be sure it was LR, bt it looked identical to photos of the wound) when i was about 9-10. my father(who is an MD) gave me some antibiotics or something that stopped further necrosis, and the wound was healed shortly after. nothing to wrie home about in my experience.

Antibiotics would serve no use in the treatment of a recluse bite. If the wound that you describe responded to treatment with antibiotics then it was quite likely due to some other mechanism rather than a Recluse bite.
Your reference to being bitten in your sleep but not being able to confirm whether or not it was indeed a Recluse, simply adds to the statistics of unsubstantiated spider bites.
I don't mean to be crass but it is accounts such as this that only lead to an even greater misunderstanding of L.reclusa.

 

[JPD]

ive heard stories of Widow bites in S Europe (L.tredecimgutattus) which lead to huge chunks of flesh needing to be removed from the guy who was bitten

I would venture to say that these stories are false.

There is an enzyme in recluse venom that a small number of people are allergic to. When someone who is allergic to the enzyme is bitten, that's when the horrible wounds are caused.

I have never heard of this enzyme...perhaps you could elaborate?

I really wish that many of you posting on this thread would provide more details as to where you gleaned your information from. If an average, non arachnid loving, citizen were to venture into this thread, they would no doubt leave with plenty of ammunition in which to further perpetuate the myths surrounding these two spiders.

Recluse venom is not going to kill you on it's own unless the bite is conveniently situated where it will cause necrosis in a major organ. And that doesn't happen much. It will cause mild to serious necrosis (rotting of the flesh) around the bite wound, resulting in a large open sore. These sores are easily infected, and the few deaths that actually occur invoving recluses are from subsequent infections instead of the actual venom.

When has there ever been documentation of a L.reclusa bite causing necrosis all the way down to a major organ?
And...in the rare instance that severe necrosis is documented in an L.reclusa bite, where has it ever been noted that the necrosis leads to infection and subsequent death?

 

[SqueakMaan]

The bit about the enzyme in the venom i got from the Discovery Health Channel so you can take that with a grain of salt. The rest of my info I got from this site, http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2061.html which has a great deal of useful info.

 

[JPD]

Thanks....
Btw.....I don't mean to come across so rude....I just love to get up on the ol' soapbox when it comes to defending my favorite spiders. Sorry to all...did not mean to offend.

 

[G. Carnell]

Hi
when i say "stories" these are not "myth" type stories
my Aunts builder was affected like this

thenagain you get Loxocseles(sp?) in Corsica, so maybe it was this

 

[death1]

L. Recluse bite...

I worked with a consultant who lived in AZ and was bitten by L. Recluse(or thats what he told me) on his ankle. He was still having reactions a year later. He did receive medical attention. It was a huge red scar that he still complained about. He was taking Tylenal(sp?) 3's for the pain. He also said it was swelled for months after the bite. That was all I needed to see and hear. He didn't have any tissue removed though.

 

[pandinus]

Antibiotics would serve no use in the treatment of a recluse bite. If the wound that you describe responded to treatment with antibiotics then it was quite likely due to some other mechanism rather than a Recluse bite.
Your reference to being bitten in your sleep but not being able to confirm whether or not it was indeed a Recluse, simply adds to the statistics of unsubstantiated spider bites.
I don't mean to be crass but it is accounts such as this that only lead to an even greater misunderstanding of L.reclusa.

okay then, say it wasnt a recluse bite. that only makes their case better. in that case, i have been living in a house infested with LR for 10 years, and before that a house infested with LR for 5 years, and never once recieved a bite.

When has there ever been documentation of a L.reclusa bite causing necrosis all the way down to a major organ?
And...in the rare instance that severe necrosis is documented in an L.reclusa bite, where has it ever been noted that the necrosis leads to infection and subsequent death?

while it is in no way shape or form common(in fact i think it is rare enough that it could be considered a freak accident) things like those listed above DO happen on occasion. some people have allergic reactions, or get infections, and i think it is harder to believe that no one has ever died from the rsult of such complications. look into medical journals, just because most accusations and fear of the spider are untrue, doesnt mean that they didnt originate from some sort of fact.

 

[Elizabeth]

People having severe reactions to the venom of brown recluse (or black widows, for that matter) is most often due to the person having compromised health already. It isn't about the strength of the venom.

JPD is right to get on this thread and note that anecdotes don't make good science. (But it is fine and sometimes fun to trade stories, so the thread doesn't bother me in the least.)

If you didn't see the spider, you don't know what it was that bit you, and that is final, as far as science goes. Swapping stories? Tell us it was from outer space, for all I care!

As for the fellow who got bit in AZ and had the painful reaction that lasted a year, well, it surprises some people that they could have a reaction at all to creature envenomations. Bee, wasp, some types of ants, a number of spiders that have fangs big enough to penetrate human skin, and the list goes on and on: there are a lot of things out there that could cause a reaction that might be painful and long-lasting in individuals. What happens is that most people will only be familiar with the names of a few infamous creatures, so all the reactions get blamed on those.

He might be telling the truth, but without hard science behind it, it is just another story.

Systemic loxoscelism can kill. There was another thread on this. I was surprised to learn about it, as I thought the recluse could only cause tissue necrosis, but Atalanta provided an excellent link on this extremely rare reaction to the venom of the recluse.

Necrosis down to major organs? Yeah, that's campfire horror story stuff! :}

 

[pandinus]

there is a lot of myth nd fear regarding L reclusa. it has the reputation of being the 2nd deadliest spider in the US, whether this is true or not is not something i really care about. I think the spider gets a lot of bad press and a reputation that it does not deserve. i'm not scared of them. i think a lot of the fear generated by them comes from a lack of hard facts that are readily available. Many people around here fear the DREADED brown recluse, and freak out whhen any spider comes inside their house(especially the lycosa spp.) but then when i show them a LR they are often shocked. "THAT'S a brown recluse?! man those hings are everywhere at my house! I thought they werre like huge and hairy!" some people have been liiving with tthem for years and never had a clue! which just goes to show my point. Despite the unsiightly and painful venom of Loxosceles, they are really not that bad. they mind their ownn business and stay out of he way(except in the summer then you see a lot of males wandering around, and a lot of them come in seeking shelter from the heat.) i see bites as more being flukes than anything else, because within minutes of encountering your first LR, you will realize that is rather well behaved, and no morre threatening than a house spider. Dont get me wrong, the bite packs a punch, and should be respected. but then again, there are many animals in the world that could do us great harm, they dont because they dont want to.

Anyway, that is just my two cents on the issue, thanks for listening to my rant.

cheers,
John

oh, BTW
just in case anyone doubts that there are really LR in my area, i live in kansas. TRUST me, they are reclusas. In fact, if any of you people less "fortunate" than me want some, PM me, i have them to spare.

 

[Venom]

Despite the unsiightly and painful venom of Loxosceles, they are really not that bad. they mind their ownn business and stay out of he way....is rather well behaved, and no morre threatening than a house spider. Dont get me wrong, the bite packs a punch, and should be respected. but then again, there are many animals in the world that could do us great harm, they dont because they dont want to

This strikes me as an underestimation of how serious Loxosceles envenomation can be, and how much of a risk having them in one's home is. Land mines don't seek out humans to injure either, but if you step or roll over on one -- the usual scenario in recluse bites--, a loss of tissue usually results...

The local effects alone really are "that bad". Perhaps your own experience was a mild bite, but the necrosis can be quite severe in some cases, and the occurence of systemic loxoscelism is much more probable than the lottery-odds likelihood you may think it has.

Admittedly, this isn't a very defensive spider, and it certainly doesn't seek out confrontations but rather is..duh...reclusive. However, it really is a case of having landmines running around your house, because even if the spider doesn't want to hurt you or seek you out, accidents happen. They get into towels, bedsheets, and clothing and get themselves into situations where they are smashed / pinned against our skin. This just isn't safe. House spiders are species which can innocuously coexist with human beings and not cause significant harm in any situation or accidental crushing. Pholcus, Achaearanea, and most Tegenaria are acceptable "house spiders". Loxosceles sp. are not.

they dont because they dont want to

They don't have to want to, they just have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They may be shy, retiring, and non-confrontational, but they do bite in accidental situations. Loxosceles sp. have caused fatalities and/or serious bodily harm by the direct action of their venom. Nothing that venomous is an acceptable house guest.

 

[JPD]

Necrosis down to major organs? Yeah, that's campfire horror story stuff!

Amen to that sister!

just in case anyone doubts that there are really LR in my area, i live in kansas. TRUST me, they are reclusas. In fact, if any of you people less "fortunate" than me want some, PM me, i have them to spare.

It is nice to hear of someone talk of L.reclusa and their exposure to them who is truly in the "Land-O-Reclusa" John, I would love to purchase 10 nice fat females from you. Please PM me.

The local effects alone really are "that bad". Perhaps your own experience was a mild bite, but the necrosis can be quite severe in some cases, and the occurence of systemic loxoscelism is much more probable than the lottery-odds likelihood you may think it has.

Please...please...... read through the following link:
http://spiders.ucr.edu/expert.html

Nothing that venomous is an acceptable house guest.

They are welcome in my house anytime

 

[Elizabeth]

and the occurence of systemic loxoscelism is much more probable than the lottery-odds likelihood you may think it has.

I hope you don't play the lottery because you know the odds and think they are reasonable!

I think your statement about which is more probable is wrong. People actually have won lotteries. I think that number is likely quite a bit bigger than those who have been affected by systemic loxoscelism. However, I can't find a reliable source for numbers/stats on these two at this time....

Agreed, that the venom of the brown recluse is something to respect. It does have the potential for more damage than your average spider bite. If I lived in a brown recluse area, I would probably have compensating habits, such as shaking clothes before putting them on.

 

[death1]

As for the fellow who got bit in AZ and had the painful reaction that lasted a year, well, it surprises some people that they could have a reaction at all to creature envenomations.

This guy was older, like 65+ and not very active.

P.S. Its just a discussion... I welcome anyones views on this.

 

[Venom]

I think your statement about which is more probable is wrong. People actually have won lotteries.

And people have "actually" had systemic loxoselism too.

I think that number is likely quite a bit bigger than those who have been affected by systemic loxoscelism.

Of course it is, because the number of people playing the lottery is much much larger than the number of people being bitten by recluses. I was talking percentages, trying to make the point that the systemic envenomation wasn't a one-in-a-million, struck by lightning, lottery odds probability--but that it does happen, and it is a threat to be considered.

However, I can't find a reliable source for numbers/stats on these two at this time....

Here you go:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-879X2003000300004&lng=en&nrm=iso

"Indeed, in Chile, where L. laeta is the most prevalent species (9,10), the incidence of the viscerocutaneous form of loxoscelism is 13% among all patients. In Brazil, L. gaucho is the most common species in São Paulo, and the incidence of the viscerocutaneous form is 3.1%. In Curitiba, where L. intermedia is the most common species, the incidence of the viscerocutaneous form reaches 0.15% among all patients (11). In the State of Santa Catarina, where L. laeta is by far the most prevalent species, the incidence of the viscerocutaneous form reaches 13.1% (12)."


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3855/is_200205/ai_n9027891


"Cutaneous loxoscelism was the commonest form presenting (96%); commonest manifestations were: pain (76%), erythema (72%), edema with enduration (66%), ecchymosis (39%). Skin necrosis occurred in 53% of patients, most frequently seen on trunk, tigh and upper arm, and when patients seek medical care more than 72 hours after bite. Local infection was detected in 12 patients (3%). Hemolysis was confirmed in 4 cases (1.1 %). Generalised cutaneous rash, fever and headache were also observed in 48% of the total of patients. None of them had acute renal failure or died"



http://www.embbs.com/aem/bite-d.html


"Systemic loxoscelism is reported to develop in fewer than 10% of cutaneous cases.5 There is a higher frequency in children than adults.6 Despite this, most of the existing studies do not include children. At times the systemic manifestations may develop before the cutaneous lesion becomes clearly apparent resulting in difficulty in diagnosis. Acute onset of fever usually within 24 hours of envenomation followed by the development of a generalized rash and constitutional symptoms may herald the syndrome. A hemolytic anemia may develop progressing to thrombocytopenia and disseminated intravascular coagulation. Renal failure may develop based on the hemoglobinuria present. The hemolytic process usually resolves within a week if complications are supported. Death may result from renal failure, disseminated intravascular coagulation, or other organ failure"




.15% - 13.1% is still a significant percentage!

 

[Elizabeth]

Systemic loxoscelism does occur and it is a threat. I never said it was otherwise. What I said was that I think your comparison of the lottery (odds) was probably wrong.

Thanks for the link. Your link and stance still don't convince me, though, that suffering from systemic loxoscelism from a bite isn't more like the one-in-a-million odds.

Your numbers are still off, as these figures you quote are still only from those bite victims who even sought treatment. The study was only 359 people. Alas, we could get the numbers of people who play the lottery and of those who win. Getting good data on recluse bite victims probably doesn't come better than what you have provided.

Perhaps there is an estimate somewhere of those bitten by Loxosceles sp, to compare with how many then seek or need treatment, and then again how many get the systemic loxoscelism.

I will reiterate, though, that I absolutely agree that taking chances with a recluse bite wouldn't be wise. I just don't know how much I would worry about it.

It sounds like you kill any brown recluse you find in the home. That's fine by me. I get rid of any black widows that I find inside my home. It's a personal choice, eh?

 

[JPD]

That's fine by me. I get rid of any black widows that I find inside my home. It's a personal choice, eh?

 

[Elizabeth]

Oh, don't be silly! I have two young children, one of whom is still under 5 yrs, and get rid of means mostly putting them outside. But when I choose to kill the next one, I will think of you and your judgment and give it a truly vicious swat, right on the fat, arrogant a**bdomen! ;P

 

[JPD]

Oh, don't be silly! I have two young children, one of whom is still under 5 yrs, and get rid of means mostly putting them outside. But when I choose to kill the next one, I will think of you and your judgment and give it a truly vicious swat, right on the fat, arrogant a**bdomen!

I knew that you would never hurt our little friends! As for your other comments....."How Wude" (said in the voice of Michelle from Full House). :evil: ;P :evil: ;P

 

[Venom]

Systemic loxoscelism does occur and it is a threat. I never said it was otherwise. What I said was that I think your comparison of the lottery (odds) was probably wrong.

Thanks for the link. Your link and stance still don't convince me, though, that suffering from systemic loxoscelism from a bite isn't more like the one-in-a-million odds.

The medical literature seems to indicate that there is a real possibility of this happening. The numbers obviously aren't perfect, but the fact that they were able to get an observed percentage, ( let alone one as high as 13%) from fewer than 400 cases seems to show that it is more than one-in-a-million.

Your numbers are still off, as these figures you quote are still only from those bite victims who even sought treatment. The study was only 359 people. Alas, we could get the numbers of people who play the lottery and of those who win. Getting good data on recluse bite victims probably doesn't come better than what you have provided.

Yes, that is true. They can't be taken as completely accurate, but only a sort of indication. However, barring cases in the boonies where going to the hospital is not an option, I would think that the bites for which medical attention is sought would be those with serious manifestations, i.e. only the bites that injected venom, and caused at least a nasty sore. There are doubtless many bites that go unreported because they don't produce any significant symptoms, so the percentages we have of serious necrotism, and of systemic loxoscelism are too large because they don't take into account the number of bites that are "duds," so to speak. The percentages really only measure how prevalent a certain manifestation is among the serious, ( and therefore reported ) bites. If, say, a third of all the Loxosceles bites in Brazil are not reported due to lack of symptoms, then the 13.1% becomes only 8.7%, and the .15% a mere .099%. Not the most overwhelming percentage, but still serious. Honestly, in my opinion, if there were even a 1% chance of systemic loxoscelism occuring-- averaged from all species of Loxosceles-- it would still be a serious risk!

I will reiterate, though, that I absolutely agree that taking chances with a recluse bite wouldn't be wise.

Absolutely true. And think about it, even from a common sense viewpoint it is safer to overestimate than underestimate.

It sounds like you kill any brown recluse you find in the home. That's fine by me. I get rid of any black widows that I find inside my home. It's a personal choice, eh?

I don't kill any brown recluses I find in my home, because I am out of the range for Loxosceles sp. I live in Michigan, 150 miles north of the Ohio-Michigan border. Believe me though, I would if they were here.


RE: JPD

They are welcome in my house anytime

Mild insanity?