- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Messages
- 1,101
Your behavior is out of line. I asked questions concerning a species that I'm or was interesting in purchasing. Let me be as professional as I can be just forClearly, there is a great deal you don’t know when it comes to baumgarteni and one of them is how long they can take to mature (I already mentioned that there are still some immature males from Eddy’s 2004 breeding). So quite frankly, I couldn’t care less if you have issues with the Pope or if you need convincing to scratch yourself in the morning. I have nothing to prove to anyone, much less you.
That said, I will play along just this once, foroop: and giggles.
The original picture I posted of the male was taken in natural light. Mature males tend to have a very fuzzy aspect to them so the flash usually messes up the image.
This image is of the same male, now months deceased:
Leg 1 :
Leg 3:
As you can see, he does indeed have the “lightning bolt” pattern on the metatarsi.
Here’s a link to an image of a male baumgarteni in the wild from Eddy Hijmensen’s website mantid.nl (you have to scroll to the bottom of the page) – I was with him when he photographed it in 2009. If you take the time to compare this male to mine, you will see that they are nearly identical (from the abdomen all the way to the cephalothorax, patella and metatarsi). The only difference being that one image was taken with the flash and the other with natural light. But in either case, the “lightning bolt” pattern, while present, is rather faint:
http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#1
Needless to say, colors, lighting, exposure, etc. are all variable. This is why pentaxonomy has little bearing in any serious discussion on a given species.
Now, I find it laughable how you like to use the “lightning bolt” characteristic when I was one of the first individuals to start using this as a potentially defining character, years ago (in the absence of any known stable keys). I am no taxonomist so this was and still is only my opinion. You on the other hand, claim that this is the defining character of the species and proclaim “evidence” based on images, despite knowing that a) color and images prove nothing as they are NOT taxonomy and b) hybrids also show this pattern as well. Even worse, you claim to be able to tell people whether or not they have baumgarteni when you have no clue as to their origin. Let’s be clear, you have not examined the type material, much less seen them in the wild… nor do you have any real experience with them to begin with so where are you coming from?
One thing I can say, based on years of visting red-legged Brachypelma type sites and large populations; there is considerable variation in coloration and size from one specimen to another within their given range and even within the same populations. Some of them have very large distribution ranges which can also result in very interesting variation. Again, another reason to avoid using images to determine a given species.
And please, Jose and anyone else, I will not divulge any information on any vendor if I feel it is irrelevant. Harping on the matter will not change anything. The damage has already been done. More importantly, you fail to realize and answer to the fact that your own local dealers imported the spiders, were aware of the situation and apparently did little if anything to mitigate the situation. Why aren’t you mudslinging them? It seems to me like their actions or lack thereof, did considerably more damage than anything else. The fact remains that this particular incident seems to have been an honest mistake on the Mexican breeder’s part and I don’t see how or why he would do it again. His reputation is already tarnished and credibility has been damaged considerably. Trying to point fingers at this stage will do nothing to improve or change anything. If you want to help the situation, stop telling people that they have or don’t have baumgarteni. If they purchased the spider as boehmi and it looks a lot like baumgarteni, then it is most likely a hybrid or a pretty spider at best. Bottom line is, if you can’t track down the origin, then you don’t know what you have when it comes to this species. Pretty simple.
If anything, I think we should all be content that there now real bonafide baumgarteni for sale in the hobby.
oop: and giggles to you.Did you know that your hatchlings were offered to me at wholesale? Do you think for a second that I would purchase a large sum of a species that has been previously hybrid not once, twice or three times in the last 6 to 7 years at wholesale. Without me seeing proof of all three parents that are supposed to be B. baumgarteni. Your mature male reminds me a lot of my immature male, lightning bolt pattern on your male not as visual as your two females. My 6" inch immature male shows same characteristic as your mature male, as you can see in this link see post #185 http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?248735-B.-baumgarteni/page13 and as I was told from other people my immature male is a hybrid. The only thing different from my immature male and your mature male is, once your mature male matured the black coloring mark on the carapace is no longer on your specimen. Here is Eddy' old mating photo of his mature male http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/BrBaumgarteni.JPG as you can see his mature male you can visually see the markings just like the females.
I don't expect you to care what my opinion is but you posted on Arachnoboards to post your breeding of your spiders and the results of your breeding. If you don't like the questions being asked to you, than don't bother posting. When I responded to your original post I sincerely was happy to see your post cause of the fact that I was thinking of purchasing a large sum of slings that was offered to me. Dam straight you have to convince me that the father of your hatchlings is not a mutt. But since your bad attitude and behavior it does not matter to me anymore. I'll take my money elsewhere. After all it's not just me you have to convince or prove that your hatchlings are the real deal. Who ever purchases those slings will probably want proof as well. And again maybe not.
The origins of any slings are important to know of where they came from.
In regards of the Mexican breeder, in fairness to this topic and to come to a close of naming the breeder was appropriate. I almost feel that you felt sorry for this breeder. If you feel that not naming the breeder who did the hybrids intentionally or not what's the difference of you posting and naming your self as the breeder of new hatchlings? Who cares right? The name of the breeder has been named and it has come to close for me. Yes, it was important to name the breeder since your buddy Eddy and another member Trav posted on this thread making claims about the hybrids in Mexico. Maybe your mature male came from Mexico? Maybe not...............
Now if I have people pm me on Arachnoboards in regards of what species they have I will give my input to that person. Or even on a post. I don't need to ask you or anyone else for permission to give my opinion.
I know as well that Brachypelma baumgarteni can take a while to molt. My 6" inch hybrid immature male has not molted for two years. Even hybrids will take a while too. You say I'm not an expert on this species. Well I can tell you I've own a large female Brachypelma baumgarteni. Also this old female of mine that I use to have, I've watched it grow from two old friends of mine that previously owned her for years. I know exactly what they look like, temperament etc. Does this make me an expert? Absolutely not! Im no different from you or any other a avarage hobbiest that knows a bit about tarantulas.
Just because you say that your three specimens came from Eddy's 2004 hatchlings I will be jumping up and down drinking wine for joy. As you stated before about naming people what does it matter...............
---------- Post added 08-16-2015 at 09:38 PM ----------
Oh just for
oop: and giggles I also know that Brachypelma verdezi has been hybrid with Brachypelma vegans. So there are quite a few verdezi that are not full blooded according to the breeder that hybrid the two together. But since naming the person won't change anything why bother, right? I found this out the day I found out about your hatchlings and the name of the Mexican breeder.
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