B. baumgarteni

[scott308]

I'm sorry to hear of your losses, Jose.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

My condolences on your baumgarteni. It's never fun to lose animals.

I got her (in rough shape) from Petco. I don't think it will be possible to obtain much information other than that unfortunately...

Even as a hybrid is strange that your spider came from Petco.

It has been difficult for me to loose two of the same species on the same year.

---------- Post added 08-06-2015 at 04:19 AM ----------

I'm sorry to hear of your losses, Jose.

Yeah, it's rough!

 

[AnthrpicDecadnc]

I have thought it was odd that the spider came from Petco. Especially since it was a grown Brachypelma. I've spoken to several friends/hobbyists about it, with much speculation. I'll have to go to the store and talk to my buddy who works there to find out more information.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Since we are on the subject of the Brachypelma baumgarteni I do have additional important information. I know the name of the person from Mexico that is one of the few people responsible for the many hybrids of the Brachypelma boehmei/baumgarteni. His name is Gerardo Beltran, as far as I know I was told he is no longer in business and he was confronted by a Canada dealer about the issue of the two species being hybred. This is confirm by Bruce from Arachnophiliacs in Canada.

Bruce stated to me that he had no problem for me to give this information on Arachnoboards.

I feel that this important to post since we are dealing with many hybrids of this two species and it answers our questions that some of us had for Eddy.

 

[viper69]

It always surprises me how reluctant people are to point out facts about others for fear of whatever reason/s.

This isn't directed at anyone but I've seen far too much secrecy in these small exotic hobbies

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

It always surprises me how reluctant people are to point out facts about others for fear of whatever reason/s.

This isn't directed at anyone but I've seen far too much secrecy in these small exotic hobbies

Trav and Eddy started pointing fingers at the U.S. hobby and Canada for having baumgarteni/boehmei hybrids, Eddy knowingly knowing this problem in the U.S. and Canada hobby he kept this as some sort of big secret. Not wanting to give the breeders name was pointless, eventually truth comes out in the open.

I was informed a couple of days ago of whom the breeder was that did the hybrids in Mexico. I wanted to name the person who did the hybrid so that it is documented on this thread and to avoid any sort of transaction or communication in the future with this gentleman if anyone wishes to do.

 

[viper69]

Trav and Eddy started pointing fingers at the U.S. hobby and Canada for having baumgarteni/boehmei hybrids, Eddy knowingly knowing this problem in the U.S. and Canada hobby he kept this as some sort of big secret. Not wanting to give the breeders name was pointless, eventually truth comes out in the open.

I was informed a couple of days ago of whom the breeder was that did the hybrids in Mexico. I wanted to name the person who did the hybrid so that it is documented on this thread and to avoid any sort of transaction or communication in the future with this gentleman if anyone wishes to do.

Hola mi amigo Jose! I don't blame you, I would have said who it was too! I don't know why people protect bad people. Granted if you don't know w/out a doubt, that's different of course. But if one knows, by all means, spread the word!

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Hola mi amigo Jose! I don't blame you, I would have said who it was too! I don't know why people protect bad people. Granted if you don't know w/out a doubt, that's different of course. But if one knows, by all means, spread the word!

Agreed!

As mentioned by myself and another member on the boards on a different thread there are two egg sacs of Brachypelma baumgarteni slings that will be available soon. One that is the count number of over 700 slings the other I don't know yet. The parents of the new born slings supposedly once were Eddy's slings. I'm still waiting for photos of the two females and the mature male to confirm that it is in fact Brachypelma baumgarteni.

 

[viper69]

Agreed!

As mentioned by myself and another member on the boards on a different thread there are two egg sacs of Brachypelma baumgarteni slings that will be available soon. One that is the count number of over 700 slings the other I don't know yet. The parents of the new born slings supposedly once were Eddy's slings. I'm still waiting for photos of the two females and the mature male to confirm that it is in fact Brachypelma baumgarteni.

One sac over 700, WOW! Are these in the states or this hemisphere? Would be nice to see true B. baumgarteni on the market for a change.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

One sac over 700, WOW! Are these in the states or this hemisphere? Would be nice to see true B. baumgarteni on the market for a change.

The two egg sac were produced in Canada. Yes it woul be nice to see real baumgarteni. Personally I would need to see photos of the parents before I even purchase one of the babies.

 

[Yentlequible]

He's getting big. My largest is now around 2", and he just molted 4 or 5 days ago.

 

[eman]

Greetings! I am the one who just successfully bred true baumgarteni – two egg sacs. The first one produced 729 slings. The second one will be counted shortly. Thanks Eddy for your 2004 stock!

Foremost, I'd like to quickly mention that I’ve been in contact with baumgarteni and other Mexican Brachypelma in the wild, since 2003. I personally discovered several populations within their range in Mexico and have mapped out much of the species’ distribution along with Eddy and the UNAM in Mexico. Suffice it to say that I have seen baumgarteni at all stages of their life.

Here are my two cents on the species:

- Only the male was described. As Eddy mentioned, this is likely to change once our friends in Mexico release an upcoming major revision on the genus.
- Baumgarteni have the flame / ”lightning” pattern on the metatarsal segment at all stages of their life. However, this pattern is similarly also visible on hybrids.
- The dark / light color forms occur in the same colonies (often the burrows are side by side). I believe they might change with age and environmental conditions and may vary within the same genetic lineage. More research is required to determine this for certain. This is also why coloration alone usually leads to pentaxonomy and personal opinions.
- The only way to really know what you have, is to trace back the lineage of the spiders.

Here are a few additional points I’d like to make:

I also know the person who initially hybridized the boehmi\baumgarteni that ended up in Canada and the US (some of them have been clearly displayed on this thread). I don’t think it was done intentionally but was rather a clear mistake in judgement and lack of knowledge of the species (just my hunch) and was probably only discovered after the fact, once the animals were exported and started showing some color.

Furthermore, it’s up to the exporter / importer in Canada and the US to validate what they buy. We cannot post names or information based on suspicion or opinion. What is pointless and does this hobby a disservice IMHO is posting inacurate, suspected or unverified information and passing it off as fact. Even if the name of the breeder in question was posted, what would you do about it? He’s in Mexico so you will never deal with him directly (or even know when something was imported from him, by your very own local importers)! Besides, most of the dealers who imported / exported / sold these hybrids, knew about it and sold them just the same. They are to be held accountable.

Finally, if you want to have a good idea of what real baumgarteni look like in situ, take a look at Eddy’s excellent website - http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#0 if you haven’t already or simply look at my images below.

I can assure you that the baumgarteni I have bred, are the real deal and CITES legal. Feel free to take me up on that in private.

Now for some images:

Male 1 -

Female 1 -

Female 1 with eggsac -

Female 2 -

Female 2 with eggsac -

Eggsac 1 results -

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Greetings! I am the one who just successfully bred true baumgarteni – two egg sacs. The first one produced 729 slings. The second one will be counted shortly. Thanks Eddy for your 2004 stock!

Foremost, I'd like to quickly mention that I’ve been in contact with baumgarteni and other Mexican Brachypelma in the wild, since 2003. I personally discovered several populations within their range in Mexico and have mapped out much of the species’ distribution along with Eddy and the UNAM in Mexico. Suffice it to say that I have seen baumgarteni at all stages of their life.

Here are my two cents on the species:

- Only the male was described. As Eddy mentioned, this is likely to change once our friends in Mexico release an upcoming major revision on the genus.
- Baumgarteni have the flame / ”lightning” pattern on the metatarsal segment at all stages of their life. However, this pattern is similarly also visible on hybrids.
- The dark / light color forms occur in the same colonies (often the burrows are side by side). I believe they might change with age and environmental conditions and may vary within the same genetic lineage. More research is required to determine this for certain. This is also why coloration alone usually leads to pentaxonomy and personal opinions.
- The only way to really know what you have, is to trace back the lineage of the spiders.

Here are a few additional points I’d like to make:

I also know the person who initially hybridized the boehmi\baumgarteni that ended up in Canada and the US (some of them have been clearly displayed on this thread). I don’t think it was done intentionally but was rather a clear mistake in judgement and lack of knowledge of the species (just my hunch) and was probably only discovered after the fact, once the animals were exported and started showing some color.

Furthermore, it’s up to the exporter / importer in Canada and the US to validate what they buy. We cannot post names or information based on suspicion or opinion. What is pointless and does this hobby a disservice IMHO is posting inacurate, suspected or unverified information and passing it off as fact. Even if the name of the breeder in question was posted, what would you do about it? He’s in Mexico so you will never deal with him directly (or even know when something was imported from him, by your very own local importers)! Besides, most of the dealers who imported / exported / sold these hybrids, knew about it and sold them just the same. They are to be held accountable.

Finally, if you want to have a good idea of what real baumgarteni look like in situ, take a look at Eddy’s excellent website - http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#0 if you haven’t already or simply look at my images below.

I can assure you that the baumgarteni I have bred, are the real deal and CITES legal. Feel free to take me up on that in private.

Now for some images:

Male 1 -

Female 1 -

Female 1 with eggsac -

Female 2 -

Female 2 with eggsac -

Eggsac 1 results -

I'm so glad you posted. Help me understand about your three specimens.

You have two females that came from Eddy's 2004 hatchlings, is this correct? That would make your two female 11 years old as of this year. You have a male that matured was it last year? And was the male also one of Eddy's hatchlings from 2004? If so that would make your mature male 10 to 11 years of age, is this correct? Also this would make all three of them related is this correct?

 

[eman]

That's exactly it. I don't power feed my spiders and I severely stunted the male until I knew that the females would be ready. But I also know others who still have immature males from Eddy's 2004 breeding.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

That's exactly it. I don't power feed my spiders and I severely stunted the male until I knew that the females would be ready. But I also know others who still have immature males from Eddy's 2004 breeding.

I definetly don't question your two females that they are true baumgarteni. But your mature male hardly or not at all has the black hairs that gives the formation of the lightning bolt pattern. And it's barely visible. For example here is Eddy's old breeding photo http://www.southernspiderworks.com/photogallery/BrBaumgarteni.JPG his mature male is visible.

I need a bit of convincing with regards of your mature male.

 

[viper69]

This is very interesting indeed. Visually, is the black lined lightning bolt THE defining characteristic to tell them apart from say smithi? I have to compare these to my living female smithi. 700+ wow

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Greetings! I am the one who just successfully bred true baumgarteni – two egg sacs. The first one produced 729 slings. The second one will be counted shortly. Thanks Eddy for your 2004 stock!

Foremost, I'd like to quickly mention that I’ve been in contact with baumgarteni and other Mexican Brachypelma in the wild, since 2003. I personally discovered several populations within their range in Mexico and have mapped out much of the species’ distribution along with Eddy and the UNAM in Mexico. Suffice it to say that I have seen baumgarteni at all stages of their life.

Here are my two cents on the species:

- Only the male was described. As Eddy mentioned, this is likely to change once our friends in Mexico release an upcoming major revision on the genus.
- Baumgarteni have the flame / ”lightning” pattern on the metatarsal segment at all stages of their life. However, this pattern is similarly also visible on hybrids.
- The dark / light color forms occur in the same colonies (often the burrows are side by side). I believe they might change with age and environmental conditions and may vary within the same genetic lineage. More research is required to determine this for certain. This is also why coloration alone usually leads to pentaxonomy and personal opinions.
- The only way to really know what you have, is to trace back the lineage of the spiders.

Here are a few additional points I’d like to make:

I also know the person who initially hybridized the boehmi\baumgarteni that ended up in Canada and the US (some of them have been clearly displayed on this thread). I don’t think it was done intentionally but was rather a clear mistake in judgement and lack of knowledge of the species (just my hunch) and was probably only discovered after the fact, once the animals were exported and started showing some color.

Furthermore, it’s up to the exporter / importer in Canada and the US to validate what they buy. We cannot post names or information based on suspicion or opinion. What is pointless and does this hobby a disservice IMHO is posting inacurate, suspected or unverified information and passing it off as fact. Even if the name of the breeder in question was posted, what would you do about it? He’s in Mexico so you will never deal with him directly (or even know when something was imported from him, by your very own local importers)! Besides, most of the dealers who imported / exported / sold these hybrids, knew about it and sold them just the same. They are to be held accountable.

Finally, if you want to have a good idea of what real baumgarteni look like in situ, take a look at Eddy’s excellent website - http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#0 if you haven’t already or simply look at my images below.

I can assure you that the baumgarteni I have bred, are the real deal and CITES legal. Feel free to take me up on that in private.

Now for some images:

Male 1 -

Female 1 -

Female 1 with eggsac -

Female 2 -

Female 2 with eggsac -

Eggsac 1 results -

Naming the breeder from Mexico is relevant, wether he did it intentionally or not. As sellers or buyers usually like to know the origins of their stock, I know I would. Maybe to some people does not matter.

I have two major issues about your mature male that I'm not convinced being true baumgarteni: First, as I mentioned to you before, the lightning bolt pattern is not visually seen compare to the females. Second, as you stated before you had a mature male that matured 10 to 11 years from his birth date. Does a long time the brother of his two sisters finally matured 10 to 11 years later. This is my opinion.

Do you have photos of the immature male during his final molt? Or before your male molted?

What size was your mature male? Same as your females what size are they?

 

[viper69]

I agree with Jose, I like to know the origins of my Ts, even if I don't breed them.

 

[eman]

Naming the breeder from Mexico is relevant, wether he did it intentionally or not. As sellers or buyers usually like to know the origins of their stock, I know I would. Maybe to some people does not matter.

I have two major issues about your mature male that I'm not convinced being true baumgarteni: First, as I mentioned to you before, the lightning bolt pattern is not visually seen compare to the females. Second, as you stated before you had a mature male that matured 10 to 11 years from his birth date. Does a long time the brother of his two sisters finally matured 10 to 11 years later. This is my opinion.

Do you have photos of the immature male during his final molt? Or before your male molted?

What size was your mature male? Same as your females what size are they?

Clearly, there is a great deal you don’t know when it comes to baumgarteni and one of them is how long they can take to mature (I already mentioned that there are still some immature males from Eddy’s 2004 breeding). So quite frankly, I couldn’t care less if you have issues with the Pope or if you need convincing to scratch yourself in the morning. I have nothing to prove to anyone, much less you.

That said, I will play along just this once.

The original picture I posted of the male was taken in natural light. Mature males tend to have a very fuzzy aspect to them so the flash usually messes up the image.

This image is of the same male, now months deceased:



Leg 1 :


Leg 3:


As you can see, he does indeed have the “lightning bolt” pattern on the metatarsi.

Here’s a link to an image of a male baumgarteni in the wild from Eddy Hijmensen’s website mantid.nl (you have to scroll to the bottom of the page) – I was with him when he photographed it in 2009. If you take the time to compare this male to mine, you will see that they are nearly identical (from the abdomen all the way to the cephalothorax, patella and metatarsi). The only difference being that one image was taken with the flash and the other with natural light. But in either case, the “lightning bolt” pattern, while present, is rather faint:

http://mantid.nl/tarantula/baumgarteni.html#1



Needless to say, colors, lighting, exposure, etc. are all variable. This is why pentaxonomy has little bearing in any serious discussion on a given species.

Now, I find it laughable how you like to use the “lightning bolt” characteristic when I was one of the first individuals to start using this as a potentially defining character, years ago (in the absence of any known stable keys). I am no taxonomist so this was and still is only my opinion. You on the other hand, claim that this is the defining character of the species and proclaim “evidence” based on images, despite knowing that a) color and images prove nothing as they are NOT taxonomy and b) hybrids also show this pattern as well. Even worse, you claim to be able to tell people whether or not they have baumgarteni when you have no clue as to their origin. Let’s be clear, you have not examined the type material, much less seen them in the wild… nor do you have any real experience with them to begin with so where are you coming from?

One thing I can say, based on years of visting red-legged Brachypelma type sites and large populations; there is considerable variation in coloration and size from one specimen to another within their given range and even within the same populations. Some of them have very large distribution ranges which can also result in very interesting variation. Again, another reason to avoid using images to determine a given species.

And please, Jose and anyone else, I will not divulge any information on any vendor if I feel it is irrelevant. Harping on the matter will not change anything. The damage has already been done. More importantly, you fail to realize and answer to the fact that your own local dealers imported the spiders, were aware of the situation and apparently did little if anything to mitigate the situation. Why aren’t you mudslinging them? It seems to me like their actions or lack thereof, did considerably more damage than anything else. The fact remains that this particular incident seems to have been an honest mistake on the Mexican breeder’s part and I don’t see how or why he would do it again. His reputation is already tarnished and credibility has been damaged considerably. Trying to point fingers at this stage will do nothing to improve or change anything. If you want to help the situation, stop telling people that they have or don’t have baumgarteni. If they purchased the spider as boehmi and it looks a lot like baumgarteni, then it is most likely a hybrid or a pretty spider at best. Bottom line is, if you can’t track down the origin, then you don’t know what you have when it comes to this species. Pretty simple.

If anything, I think we should all be content that there now real bonafide baumgarteni for sale in the hobby.

 

[viper69]

I think some people are more upset at the breeder than tv middle men because the breeder was the source of this accident. I don't know who s/he is myself, but as I own boehmei and smithi females, I can see how some people would confuse baum with a smithi.