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Avicularia Morphotypes?

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by Tessa Clifton, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. dangerforceidle

    dangerforceidle Arachnobaron Active Member

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    This was covered by @AphonopelmaTX's post in that the morphological classification doesn't see enough differentiation to label them as different species at this time, but genetic analysis may show them to be their own species. The 'morphotypes' of A. avicularia are basically pending further review, so "hobby" breeding lines should remain distinct until that review occurs.
     
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  2. jrh3

    jrh3 Enigmatic Arachnoid Arachnosupporter

    Well put, i see now @viper69 , its basically a pending process until the DNA research is done.
     
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  3. EtienneN

    EtienneN Arachnonovelist Arachnosupporter

    I wonder if the yellow on the shioedtei slings is from a "lethal recessive" gene. In Arabian horses, there is a bizarre lethal recessive gene known as "lavender foal syndrome", these babies die within 24 hours or so of birth and are born with a strange lavender grey hue to their coats.
     
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  4. viper69

    viper69 ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    If it gets done. Their scientists that strictly believe cladistics is enough, and others that don’t.

    As for the Avic revision, the lead author was busy raising slings or juvis among other things to ID pure species from the wild. She did great work; for me I’m a cladistics + DNA marker person.

    When you talk DNA barcodes, that’s a debate by itself, ie what barcodes are suitable for taxon work.

    Does this gold form appear in a approximate 3:1 ratio as does the gold incei, for classical Mendelian genetics for a single recessive gene?

    The gmorph. is something altogether different however, as I’m sure you know.

    I’ve examined the original sac records for incei golds. They are close to 3:1, just like @cold blood ‘s sac.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2019
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  5. Venom1080

    Venom1080 Arachnoemperor Active Member

    I don't know. Some European on Facebook posted photos of one he had in the past. I suppose it's possible it was missing ided.. but unlikely given who it was.

    Good to know about the ratio. I was unaware.

    Yes, gmorphs are different. But I was also referring to color mutations (?) In same sex species. P irminia for example. Or some Poecilotheria.
     
  6. cold blood

    cold blood Moderator Staff Member

    I had a P. cam once....one hatched by me....that was purple through the juvie stage...when he matured though, he was identical to his brothers.

    Interesting info, never heard that about schioedtei....now im really hoping my female drops and one if these yellow ones pop up...that would be interesting.
     
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  7. Venom1080

    Venom1080 Arachnoemperor Active Member

    Now that's pretty cool.. I can share screenshots I have of everything. But I don't think that's allowed here. I
     
  8. cold blood

    cold blood Moderator Staff Member

    private messege
     
  9. viper69

    viper69 ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    Science is always a body in motion, ie Change.

    The Avic avic morphotypes are all the same species... for now.

    This won’t change until someone does more analysis. They could all be different species or not. Until further analysis is done science accepts them as morphotypes under A. avic.

    Yes that is him, don’t know if he teaches undergrad. Google him, he was on Stephen Colbert show years ago for his discoveries.


    I know. I didn’t want to mix different reasons for color morphs that are not related.
    May confuse people who read this in the future.

    Same sex?? Are you referring to sexual
    dimorphism- which is not related to the topic jr and I are having?

    Just a bit lost..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2019
  10. Venom1080

    Venom1080 Arachnoemperor Active Member

    Sorry, I meant a a non gmorph with bizarre patterning. Poecilotheria and P irminia more notably ime.
     
  11. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

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    There are 7 morphotypes, right? A. avicularia = m#1, A. braunshauseni = m#2, A. metallica = m#6, but what with the 3, 4, 5 and 7? Do they also have hobby names? I can't find anything about them. What with sp. Boa Vista? Is it also one of those A. avicularia morphotypes?
     
  12. cold blood

    cold blood Moderator Staff Member

    Not hobby names...these are the old scientific names before the re classification...people just refuse to let go of the names they were so familiar with.

    Now I cant recall all the other morphotypes and what they were labeled as...I know geroldi is one, but cant recall if its 4 or 5.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  13. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

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    Oh, ok, thank you.

    I would also like to ask about other species:
    A. juruensis m#1 = urticans "green"
    A. juruensis m#2 = sp. Peru purple / urticans
    A. rufa = those previously known as A. juruensis
    A. variegata m#1 = sp. Amazonica Manaus
    A. merianae = sp. Tarapoto
    Did I get it right?
    Is there any idea within community where sp. "Pucallpa" can be placed? (edit: I found this: "Avicularia juruensis, ex A sp "Pucallpa"" - is it right? https://www.instagram.com/p/BW-1mi9lRa2/ )
    Is A. variegata m#2 in the hobby under some other name?
    Is A. juruensis m#1 also what was called A. aurantiaca?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  14. cold blood

    cold blood Moderator Staff Member

    Although you didn't touch on the Avicularia avicularia morphotypes, I do believe your analysis of these is correct....but I don't think aurantica was moved....if I missed that I need to re label...lol.
     
  15. dangerforceidle

    dangerforceidle Arachnobaron Active Member

    The paper by Fukushima et. al. from 2017 lists A. aurantiaca as nomen dubium and suggests a possible synonym of A. rufa.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  16. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

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    I'm doing my little investigation because I didn't care for Avics for years and suddenly felt in love with them :) I'm not going to relabel spiders myself when I buy them. It's better to search for the same name when I decide to breed them to prevent possible hybridisation as much as possible. But if one species is most likely being sold with multiple different names then I'll just stick to one of them. And I still need to read that revision! :O

    It seems that there were two different spiders that was tought to be A. aurantiaca, one was sold as A. aurantiaca and second one as A. cf. aurantiaca. People (I'm just looking in different places for labels on photos or discussions) are thinking that A. cf. aurantiaca is A. juruensis m#1:
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BrOJ1zDg1iv/
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BmoaJxwgfc3/
    http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/avicularia-juruensis-m1.56717/ (discussion under the photo)
    http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/avicularia-juruensis-morphotype-1.39195/ (and here too under the photo)

    Here is good view on cf. aurantiaca from mygale.de https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=131149503@N03&view_all=1&text=aurantiaca
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  17. dangerforceidle

    dangerforceidle Arachnobaron Active Member

    That's definitely possible. In nomenclature, cf. is short for the latin word conferre, meaning "compare to." So Avicularia cf. aurantiaca means it's a spider known to be within genus Avicularia and has a lot of similarities to A. aurantiaca, but it's not properly confirmed to be that species or not.

    https://wsc.nmbe.ch/reference/13817 -- this is the link to the paper by Fukushima et al.. If you register for an account at WSC, the papers can be downloaded for free. The account itself also does not cost anything, and I haven't received any spam or solicitation emails that could be sourced from there.
     
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  18. pps

    pps Arachnopeon

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    I found out today that some people thinks A. variegata m#2 was previously known as A. bicegoi