Avicularia Morphotypes?

dangerforceidle

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I see where you get the idea they are different species through Cladistics meaning they have the same ancestors and have evolved to individual species, but if this is the case the scientists that reclassified them as morphotypes is contradicting.
This was covered by @AphonopelmaTX's post in that the morphological classification doesn't see enough differentiation to label them as different species at this time, but genetic analysis may show them to be their own species. The 'morphotypes' of A. avicularia are basically pending further review, so "hobby" breeding lines should remain distinct until that review occurs.
 

jrh3

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This was covered by @AphonopelmaTX's post in that the morphological classification doesn't see enough differentiation to label them as different species at this time, but genetic analysis may show them to be their own species. The 'morphotypes' of A. avicularia are basically pending further review, so "hobby" breeding lines should remain distinct until that review occurs.
Well put, i see now @viper69 , its basically a pending process until the DNA research is done.
 

EtienneN

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Selenocosmia peerboomi as well.. like incei, they have a "gold" form. And Omothymus schioedtei slings have popped up being completely yellow. My understanding is these schioedtei slings die rather quickly. There are sooo many unique patterns and gynandromorphs out there in the tarantula world.
I wonder if the yellow on the shioedtei slings is from a "lethal recessive" gene. In Arabian horses, there is a bizarre lethal recessive gene known as "lavender foal syndrome", these babies die within 24 hours or so of birth and are born with a strange lavender grey hue to their coats.
 

viper69

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Well put, i see now @viper69 , its basically a pending process until the DNA research is done.
If it gets done. Their scientists that strictly believe cladistics is enough, and others that don’t.

As for the Avic revision, the lead author was busy raising slings or juvis among other things to ID pure species from the wild. She did great work; for me I’m a cladistics + DNA marker person.

When you talk DNA barcodes, that’s a debate by itself, ie what barcodes are suitable for taxon work.

Selenocosmia peerboomi as well.. like incei, they have a "gold" form. And Omothymus schioedtei slings have popped up being completely yellow. My understanding is these schioedtei slings die rather quickly. There are sooo many unique patterns and gynandromorphs out there in the tarantula world.
Does this gold form appear in a approximate 3:1 ratio as does the gold incei, for classical Mendelian genetics for a single recessive gene?

The gmorph. is something altogether different however, as I’m sure you know.

I’ve examined the original sac records for incei golds. They are close to 3:1, just like @cold blood ‘s sac.
 
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Venom1080

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Does this gold form appear in a approximate 3:1 ratio as does the gold incei, for classical Mendelian genetics for a single recessive gene?

The gmorph. is something altogether different however, as I’m sure you know.

I’ve examined the original sac records for incei golds. They are close to 3:1, just like @cold blood ‘s sac.
I don't know. Some European on Facebook posted photos of one he had in the past. I suppose it's possible it was missing ided.. but unlikely given who it was.

Good to know about the ratio. I was unaware.

Yes, gmorphs are different. But I was also referring to color mutations (?) In same sex species. P irminia for example. Or some Poecilotheria.
 

cold blood

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Yes, gmorphs are different. But I was also referring to color mutations (?) In same sex species. P irminia for example. Or some Poecilotheria.
I had a P. cam once....one hatched by me....that was purple through the juvie stage...when he matured though, he was identical to his brothers.

Interesting info, never heard that about schioedtei....now im really hoping my female drops and one if these yellow ones pop up...that would be interesting.
 

Venom1080

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I had a P. cam once....one hatched by me....that was purple through the juvie stage...when he matured though, he was identical to his brothers.

Interesting info, never heard that about schioedtei....now im really hoping my female drops and one if these yellow ones pop up...that would be interesting.
Now that's pretty cool.. I can share screenshots I have of everything. But I don't think that's allowed here. I
 

viper69

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Ok, I see what you were saying, I can agree with that to an extent. If minatrax and purpurea are not morphotypes then we can focus on avic avic morphotypes.

I see where you get the idea they are different species through Cladistics meaning they have the same ancestors and have evolved to individual species, but if this is the case the scientists that reclassified them as morphotypes is contradicting. Morphotype is the same species, Cladistic is not the same species if I understand it correctly.

So they either have to be the same species or not. If not they cant be morphotypes. See what im getting at?

Are you talking about the Dr. Jason Bond at Auburn University, If so, I live about an hour from the school. Would be interesting to chat with him one day. Maybe my son will get him as a professor when he goes there in 4 years.
Science is always a body in motion, ie Change.

The Avic avic morphotypes are all the same species... for now.

This won’t change until someone does more analysis. They could all be different species or not. Until further analysis is done science accepts them as morphotypes under A. avic.

Yes that is him, don’t know if he teaches undergrad. Google him, he was on Stephen Colbert show years ago for his discoveries.

I don't know. Some European on Facebook posted photos of one he had in the past. I suppose it's possible it was missing ided.. but unlikely given who it was.

Good to know about the ratio. I was unaware.

Yes, gmorphs are different. But I was also referring to color mutations (?) In same sex species. P irminia for example. Or some Poecilotheria.

I know. I didn’t want to mix different reasons for color morphs that are not related.
May confuse people who read this in the future.

Same sex?? Are you referring to sexual
dimorphism- which is not related to the topic jr and I are having?

Just a bit lost..
 
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Venom1080

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I know. I didn’t want to mix different reasons for color morphs that are not related.
May confuse people who read this in the future.

Same sex?? Are you referring to sexual
dimorphism- which is not related to the topic jr and I are having?

Just a bit lost..
Sorry, I meant a a non gmorph with bizarre patterning. Poecilotheria and P irminia more notably ime.
 

pps

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every morphotype has a former name, one that would be easily recognizable...like A. metallica is now Avicularia avicularia morphotype 6.
There are 7 morphotypes, right? A. avicularia = m#1, A. braunshauseni = m#2, A. metallica = m#6, but what with the 3, 4, 5 and 7? Do they also have hobby names? I can't find anything about them. What with sp. Boa Vista? Is it also one of those A. avicularia morphotypes?
 

cold blood

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Do they also have hobby names?
Not hobby names...these are the old scientific names before the re classification...people just refuse to let go of the names they were so familiar with.

Now I cant recall all the other morphotypes and what they were labeled as...I know geroldi is one, but cant recall if its 4 or 5.
 
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pps

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Not hobby names...these are the old scientific names before the re classification...people just refuse to let go oft he names they were so familiar with.

Now I cant recall all the other morphotypes and what they were labeled as...I know geroldi is one, but cant recall if its 4 or 5.
Oh, ok, thank you.

I would also like to ask about other species:
A. juruensis m#1 = urticans "green"
A. juruensis m#2 = sp. Peru purple / urticans
A. rufa = those previously known as A. juruensis
A. variegata m#1 = sp. Amazonica Manaus
A. merianae = sp. Tarapoto
Did I get it right?
Is there any idea within community where sp. "Pucallpa" can be placed? (edit: I found this: "Avicularia juruensis, ex A sp "Pucallpa"" - is it right? https://www.instagram.com/p/BW-1mi9lRa2/ )
Is A. variegata m#2 in the hobby under some other name?
Is A. juruensis m#1 also what was called A. aurantiaca?
 
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cold blood

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Is A. juruensis m#1 also what was called A. aurantiaca?
Although you didn't touch on the Avicularia avicularia morphotypes, I do believe your analysis of these is correct....but I don't think aurantica was moved....if I missed that I need to re label...lol.
 

dangerforceidle

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Although you didn't touch on the Avicularia avicularia morphotypes, I do believe your analysis of these is correct....but I don't think aurantica was moved....if I missed that I need to re label...lol.
The paper by Fukushima et. al. from 2017 lists A. aurantiaca as nomen dubium and suggests a possible synonym of A. rufa.
The description states female has leg IV longer than leg I, spermathecae with midwidth not expanded and orange leg rings (explaining why it was called “aurantiaca”). Thus, A. aurantiaca is likely to be a junior synonym of A. rufa. However, as there is no holotype and the description does not allow for a precise identification and characterization of the species, the name Avicularia aurantiaca Bauer, 1996 is considered, herein, as nomen dubium.
 
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pps

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Although you didn't touch on the Avicularia avicularia morphotypes, I do believe your analysis of these is correct....but I don't think aurantica was moved....if I missed that I need to re label...lol.
The paper by Fukushima et. al. from 2017 lists A. aurantiaca as nomen dubium and suggests a possible synonym of A. rufa.
I'm doing my little investigation because I didn't care for Avics for years and suddenly felt in love with them :) I'm not going to relabel spiders myself when I buy them. It's better to search for the same name when I decide to breed them to prevent possible hybridisation as much as possible. But if one species is most likely being sold with multiple different names then I'll just stick to one of them. And I still need to read that revision! :O

It seems that there were two different spiders that was tought to be A. aurantiaca, one was sold as A. aurantiaca and second one as A. cf. aurantiaca. People (I'm just looking in different places for labels on photos or discussions) are thinking that A. cf. aurantiaca is A. juruensis m#1:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BrOJ1zDg1iv/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BmoaJxwgfc3/
http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/avicularia-juruensis-m1.56717/ (discussion under the photo)
http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/avicularia-juruensis-morphotype-1.39195/ (and here too under the photo)

Here is good view on cf. aurantiaca from mygale.de https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=131149503@N03&view_all=1&text=aurantiaca
 
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dangerforceidle

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It seems that there were two different spiders that was tought to be A. aurantiaca, one was sold as A. aurantiaca and second one as A. cf. aurantiaca. People (I'm just looking in different places for labels on photos or discussions) are thinking that A. cf. aurantiaca is A. juruensis m#1:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BrOJ1zDg1iv/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BmoaJxwgfc3/
http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/avicularia-juruensis-m1.56717/ (discussion under the photo)
http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/avicularia-juruensis-morphotype-1.39195/ (and here too under the photo)

Here is good view on cf. aurantiaca from mygale.de https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=131149503@N03&view_all=1&text=aurantiaca
That's definitely possible. In nomenclature, cf. is short for the latin word conferre, meaning "compare to." So Avicularia cf. aurantiaca means it's a spider known to be within genus Avicularia and has a lot of similarities to A. aurantiaca, but it's not properly confirmed to be that species or not.

https://wsc.nmbe.ch/reference/13817 -- this is the link to the paper by Fukushima et al.. If you register for an account at WSC, the papers can be downloaded for free. The account itself also does not cost anything, and I haven't received any spam or solicitation emails that could be sourced from there.
 
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