Avicularia and the truth about cross ventilation.

[CEC]

Ahh, but one side creates vastly more airflow than top only. I do think some semblence of airflow is the need they have most, right there with hydration....but you are absolutely right, cross venting isnt the only way to achieve this, one side or multiple points like an exo terra provide this as well... top only doesnt provide this as explained in the quote i posted.

I don't know, man, I have to disagree.
I keep many of them the recommended way but I've also raised many of them in top only ventilated (with screen) containers. IME there has not been a difference in survival rates.

 

[viper69]

Busted. Lol
I had a few drinks and totally forgot I even wrote this. Haha

Might need to change your SN from CEC to Sauce.

 

[Avicularia Kael]

It wasn't airflow that killed it. Idk what did though. It had a kind of "bony" look to it compared to other A. avicularias that I have seen.

 

[AmbushArachnids]

I'm a big fan of cross venting as long as you don't go overboard. Its the most efficient way to circulate the air/humidity from inside the cage. Most avics will make there own tube web defeating that purpose. Cross venting gives them the most accurate mimic of there native environment if you ask me. I also run a humidifier and fan in the T room 24/7 to boot. That helps distribute heat and keeps everything from drying out.. Including my chameleons.

Someone in the thread mentioned it keeps the substrate from growing fungus and I find this to be correct. Top ventilation is just not as efficient and if your substrate gets to wet that combination can be too stuffy. Most air circulating goes in a lateral direction and having small vents/holes on each side is ideal to dial in the humidity and keep fresh air circulating. Like I said above I've got my T room's climate controlled/dialed in so desiccation is minimized.

 

[Dry Desert]

I'm a big fan of cross venting as long as you don't go overboard. Its the most efficient way to circulate the air/humidity from inside the cage. Most avics will make there own tube web defeating that purpose. Cross venting gives them the most accurate mimic of there native environment if you ask me. I also run a humidifier and fan in the T room 24/7 to boot. That helps distribute heat and keeps everything from drying out.. Including my chameleons.

Someone in the thread mentioned it keeps the substrate from growing fungus and I find this to be correct. Top ventilation is just not as efficient and if your substrate gets to wet that combination can be too stuffy. Most air circulating goes in a lateral direction and having small vents/holes on each side is ideal to dial in the humidity and keep fresh air circulating. Like I said above I've got my T room's climate controlled/dialed in so desiccation is minimized.

My 10 pence worth ( UK )
I agree with the above post completly - and just to resurrect my favourite chestnut - lets replicate nature. There is a whole difference between surviving and thriving, as someone stated previously.
I keep many, many scorpions, most of which are in wooden enclosures, this enables me to have large vents lower down for fresh air incoming and large vents higher up for hot air exiting. I still have a fan attached to one of the lower vents which is on a timer 30 mins. twice a day - and I have not heard any complaints from any of my scorpions !!

 

[CEC]

I think you twos maybe missing the point of this thread...
I will still recommend cross ventilation to newer keepers as they dont know how much moisture is too much and extra ventilation on multiple sides will be a safety net for over-watering mistakes.
I never said cross ventilation isn't ideal but I DO draw the line at people blaming deaths on the lack of cross ventilation like there isn't a million other potential causes of death. IME lack of cross ventilation doesn't kill, it's keeping them too moist/high humidity. I completely understand that top vented lacks in airflow comparatively (thats common sense really) but if you water them properly (they dont need much, water applied is for hydration only, not for raising humidity) there shouldn't be an issue with having a top only screen.

 

[AmbushArachnids]

I think you twos maybe missing the point of this thread...
I will still recommend cross ventilation to newer keepers as they dont know how much moisture is too much and extra ventilation on multiple sides will be a safety net for over-watering mistakes.
I never said cross ventilation isn't ideal but I DO draw the line at people blaming deaths on the lack of cross ventilation like there isn't a million other potential causes of death. IME lack of cross ventilation doesn't kill, it's keeping them too moist/high humidity. I completely understand that top vented lacks in airflow comparatively (thats common sense really) but if you water them properly (they dont need much, water applied is for hydration only, not for raising humidity) there shouldn't be an issue with having a top only screen.

Ive stated my experience and opinions. Amd it looks like we agree from what I gather. So I'm not seeing where either of us missed anything at all. Lol please point out what ive missed or what ive stated you are dissagreeing with.

 

[CEC]

Ive stated my experience and opinions. Amd it looks like we agree from what I gather. So I'm not seeing where either of us missed anything at all. Lol please point out what ive missed or what ive stated you are dissagreeing with.

You're right... I disagree with absolutely nothing of what you have said, I just think your comment would be better placed in the many other "Avicularia care" threads.
In other words, I made this thread specifically about what they "CAN" thrive in, not how they "SHOULD" be universally kept...
Both your comments I read as common recommendations, not as credible alternatives, correct me if I'm wrong... If this doesn't make any sense, I'll shut up cuz anyone that hasn't caught on by now, ain't worth replying to.

 

[viper69]

I think you twos maybe missing the point of this thread...
I will still recommend cross ventilation to newer keepers as they dont know how much moisture is too much and extra ventilation on multiple sides will be a safety net for over-watering mistakes.
I never said cross ventilation isn't ideal but I DO draw the line at people blaming deaths on the lack of cross ventilation like there isn't a million other potential causes of death. IME lack of cross ventilation doesn't kill, it's keeping them too moist/high humidity. I completely understand that top vented lacks in airflow comparatively (thats common sense really) but if you water them properly (they dont need much, water applied is for hydration only, not for raising humidity) there shouldn't be an issue with having a top only screen.

Sauce, this is a clear, cogent response demonstrating a thorough understanding of Avic husbandry naturally from you. Still need to get a Rosy before you attempt scrofa.

 

[MasterOogway]

Do we have any data on cross ventilation flow rates? I'm struggling to conceptualize how this could be considered an efficient mode of ventilation when compared to a chimney style vent mentioned above which is what almost every amphibian hobbyist uses. Amphib ventilation is probably even more important than it is for inverts, and I don't know a single frog hobbyist who utilizes cross vents over having a vented top portion combined with a vent running along the bottom of the tank. It's a more natural airflow style that can really utilize the evaporation of water to create some airflow and cooling. If the air around a tank is stagnant, where's the air movement from cross ventilation coming from?

 

[AmbushArachnids]

Do we have any data on cross ventilation flow rates? I'm struggling to conceptualize how this could be considered an efficient mode of ventilation when compared to a chimney style vent mentioned above which is what almost every amphibian hobbyist uses. Amphib ventilation is probably even more important than it is for inverts, and I don't know a single frog hobbyist who utilizes cross vents over having a vented top portion combined with a vent running along the bottom of the tank. It's a more natural airflow style that can really utilize the evaporation of water to create some airflow and cooling. If the air around a tank is stagnant, where's the air movement from cross ventilation coming from?

Frogs need humidity. Tarantulas would die in a frog vivarium. Your idea of top venting being more efficient for a T is simply a misunderstanding. Avicularia live in trees. Last I checked wind blows sideways, not up. Not 12" up from a wet damp and moldy substrate. Creating a right flow of air is similar to port and tune resonance in a ported subwoofer enclosure. Too little or too much is not optimal.

 

[MasterOogway]

Frogs need humidity. Tarantulas would die in a frog vivarium. Your idea of top venting being more efficient for a T is simply a misunderstanding. Avicularia live in trees. Last I checked wind blows sideways, not up. Not 12" up from a wet damp and moldy substrate. Creating a right flow of air is similar to port and tune resonance in a ported subwoofer enclosure. Too little or too much is not optimal.

I'm not suggesting that tarantulas need amphibian levels of humidity (ideally tho, at least for darts, the 60-80% range is the sweet spot, no one keeps frogs in airtight glass boxes anymore, that kills them really quickly); I'm questioning, in a captive environment, the efficiency of cross ventilation. I have several cross ventilated tanks, and the data I have supports that they're pretty wretched at ventilation and humidity can and often does build up to harmful levels because the air is so stagnant, even in tanks that receive 0 misting or water on the substrate. Now, these may just be rubbish tanks (I'll post some pictures and some data later, hopefully) but air movement in tanks works better IME going from bottom to top, rather than through the sides.

 

[AmbushArachnids]

I'm not suggesting that tarantulas need amphibian levels of humidity (ideally tho, at least for darts, the 60-80% range is the sweet spot, no one keeps frogs in airtight glass boxes anymore, that kills them really quickly); I'm questioning, in a captive environment, the efficiency of cross ventilation. I have several cross ventilated tanks, and the data I have supports that they're pretty wretched at ventilation and humidity can and often does build up to harmful levels because the air is so stagnant, even in tanks that receive 0 misting or water on the substrate. Now, these may just be rubbish tanks (I'll post some pictures and some data later, hopefully) but air movement in tanks works better IME going from bottom to top, rather than through the sides.

Thats false. Humidity drops with cross vents vs top vent. Top vents Do not allow humidity to escape. Also avics web up the top of the cage so if you put only top vents on a small cage any wet substrate will certainly not dry out. Do an experiment if you disagree. There's alot wrong with your logic I dont know where to begin. I've also been keeping darts sealed for 2 years straight. Never had an issue. Everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel and you can't. Its just false to say they will die real quick. I dont even understand how your compairing the 2 animals. One lives in a swamp, one in the trees. I'm sorry but that makes no logical sense. Avics need less humidity than a dart frog. Alot less.

 

[cold blood]

Do we have any data on cross ventilation flow rates? I'm struggling to conceptualize how this could be considered an efficient mode of ventilation when compared to a chimney style vent mentioned above which is what almost every amphibian hobbyist uses. Amphib ventilation is probably even more important than it is for inverts, and I don't know a single frog hobbyist who utilizes cross vents over having a vented top portion combined with a vent running along the bottom of the tank. It's a more natural airflow style that can really utilize the evaporation of water to create some airflow and cooling. If the air around a tank is stagnant, where's the air movement from cross ventilation coming from?

Go back to my first post....#6 in the thread....read the passage i quoted from a ventilation expert....it explains the problem with top only ventilation....essentially top only venting restricts air movement and doesnt allow for fresh air exchange.

 

[MasterOogway]

Top vents Do not allow humidity to escape.

Patently false. I can take a video of water vapor and droplets actively venting out of a top vent for you to demonstrate this, if you don't take me at my word. I don't even understand how you have come by this reasoning.

Also avics web up the top of the cage so if you put only top vents on a small cage any wet substrate will certainly not dry out. Do an experiment if you disagree.

I've never had an arboreal web to the point where it would mitigate the ventilation, but that's neither here nor there. As it happens, I have done an experiment for you, and here is your data:

Explainer for this chart I've made for you. This was for a Centruroides species that was kept in a bone dry cross ventilated enclosure with a small shallow water dish up until January 21st of this year, after January 21st he was moved into a top ventilated enclosure with literally every other aspect of husbandry down to the tank location and ambient conditions kept the exact same. There was almost a 40% drop in humidity in the following 24 hours, and probably a 20-30% average drop (I can do the math and put in some trend lines if I ever have the time). The effect however, is clear, and categorically debunks your 'humidity doesn't exit a top vent' idea .


Here are the vent holes in question too. This was part of my original question, but you got combative and ignored it. Are these comparable to what most other folks are

using?

I've also been keeping darts sealed for 2 years straight. Never had an issue.

I've been keeping darts for almost 15; and have been deep in the heart of dart frog habitat in Ecuador for a couple of weeks. First, they absolutely don't live in 'swamps'. They live in old growth rainforests with a huge healthy amount of leaf litter on the ground. Does it a rain a lot? Yes. Does the soil drain? Absolutely. Some species almost never encounter the ground, and live in almost the same environmental parameters as Avics, with which you will find them cohabitating in the same trees; albeit in slightly different micro-habitats. Ranitomeyas like to be in bromeliads, but happily sit out on tree limbs and branches and trunks looking for bugs, sometimes inches away from an Avic tube. Tell me again about vastly differing habitats?

I'm certainly willing to admit I'm wrong, but you haven't presented an iota of data to support your position, and your take on darts is not increasing my levels of confidence in your stances, to be honest. I'm not being combative, but what I'm looking for is evidence based debates, such as the OP had in the first post.

I want to be clear, when I'm promoting a top ventilation strategy, I am advocating for a 'chimney' style, Euro-venting setup. With a strip of ventilation at the bottom, slightly above the substrate level, and then another vent strip directly above it on the top of the tank. Not just a straight top only vent. Hopefully that might help alleviate some confusion.

 

[cold blood]

t to be clear, when I'm promoting a top ventilation strategy, I am advocating for a 'chimney' style, Euro-venting setup.

the key to these is most certainly the ventilation strip at the bottom, which allows for air movement and flow....much like an exo terra design. This system works quite well.

 

[MasterOogway]

the key to these is most certainly the ventilation strip at the bottom, which allows for air movement and flow....much like an exo terra design. This system works quite well.

Indeed. Which is really the crux of my question/concern. I remain unconvinced the cross ventilation is superior, let alone equivalent to this system. But the core issue, having multiple vent points, I think we're an agreed on this being very important. It's the specific methods I'm curious about.

 

[cold blood]

Indeed. Which is really the crux of my question/concern. I remain unconvinced the cross ventilation is superior, let alone equivalent to this system. But the core issue, having multiple vent points, I think we're an agreed on this being very important. It's the specific methods I'm curious about.

Oh, no doubt.

Cross venting is just the easiest, its by no means the only way to create good air conditions...its just the easiest to explain and comprehend, as there are tons of variations of even cross venting that would all work. You know, easier than constantly explaining airflow and circulation over and over, cross venting is a simply way to easily create adequately survivable conditions...or eliminating that potential stuffiness.

Although you see cross venting mentioned most often, I don't really see people claiming its the only way (maybe some interpret it that way?), as exo terras are discussed on these forums quite often, and periodically a thread pops up about those inexpensive glass enclosures often used in Europe which vent like an exo terra.

 

[StampFan]

Do we have any data on cross ventilation flow rates? I'm struggling to conceptualize how this could be considered an efficient mode of ventilation when compared to a chimney style vent mentioned above which is what almost every amphibian hobbyist uses. Amphib ventilation is probably even more important than it is for inverts, and I don't know a single frog hobbyist who utilizes cross vents over having a vented top portion combined with a vent running along the bottom of the tank. It's a more natural airflow style that can really utilize the evaporation of water to create some airflow and cooling. If the air around a tank is stagnant, where's the air movement from cross ventilation coming from?

Zoomed and Exo Terra enclosures and the other front opening enclosures use front ventilation as well as top. And tons of amphibian people use these enclosures.

 

[Phia]

I am a BIG fan of the exo terra enclosures for their top/front setup. I just wish the bases on the nanos were deeper for more sub