Artificial Insemination attempted on Brachypelma smithi

[Travis K]

the only thing i see as being very difficult to succeed, is the fact that you would have to have artificial penial parts made for each sp. as well. that being said could you imagine trying to replicate such a piece of equipment even remoltly cheap enough to buy?

unless you go around cutting off the penis's of each sp. in captivity to make molds id be willing to bet this is a far fetch concept. while it may work if say your male dies and you manually take his sexual part and do your best at inserting it the right way. i dont think collecting sperm would be worth while.

if you havent noticed each species have different shaped ovaries...along with different shaped penial parts. also each species will insert his penial part in a different manor. while you may get it inside of her, i doubt a human without totally researching how t insert the penis, will get it right. especially with those sp. that have rather intricate penial parts..some are simple, while others are corkscrew shaped. and all are extremely fragile.

not to mention what would happen say you did put it inside her, what if you stabbed her insides wrong and acually cause more harm than good? id hate to waste a perfectly good female especially of a rarer sp. like P. smithi.

now im not going to say it could never be done. but i am going to speculate of how it Could be done properly without harming countless males and females.

You are assuming that you would have to have the "right" shape to make it work. Humans for example do not need the male organ or even the equivalent of that organ inserted in order to get pregnant. Until we know for sure everything you said above, in respect to having to have the right shape in order for fertilization to take place, is speculation.

I am speculating that B. smithi may be able to get artificial fertilized via mechanical means. I am even willing to try this out for the sake of trying. In fact I am open to the reality that it may be very difficult or very easy for one to accomplish artificial insemination.

Regards,

 

[codykrr]

i suppose it isjust speculation on my behalf, but..untill proven whether its easy or hard im still guessing it is going to be more difficult than you imagine. while i may be wrong. it is just my assumption that it would take something designed just as the male Tarantula's penial parts to do it right, and safely.

but i am always open to new findings. but just because you manage to do it once doesnt mean you could do it twice.

i say it is worth the shot i suppose, but im not holding my breath on this being a break through in the hobby. it may be quite a neat find, i just dont see it being practical.

also if i may ask..how do you think this would work mechanically? do you have a sperm depositor design in mind...? i am very curious as to what you think may work.

also in regards to you comparing human anatomy with tarantula anatomy..id say is a fluke, because we are worlds apart in terms of sexual reproduction. also yes...if a woman was to want to use a sperm donor to have a child they dont just fling some sperm onto her vaginal region and say "ok that should do the trick"

instead they use a device to artificially insemenate her. as with cows, dogs, horses..either way. you going to need some form of a specilized tool to deliver the sperm. and i hope your not planning on just poking about your tarantulas with a syringe!

as said in my above post..the only way to make this "practical" and "safe" would be to design and specialized tool.

 

[Travis K]

as said in my above post..the only way to make this "practical" and "safe" would be to design and specialized tool.

Maybe, but you don't KNOW that. For the record I am not ruling it out either, but I really think so work would have to be done to say one way or the other. Cross breeds would suggest your "hypothesis" may be incorrect.

 

[codykrr]

you may have misunderstood my post..or i wasnt clear enough(probly the latter)

what i meant was, even if you dont design sp. specific counterparts. you would still need a basic tool to inject the sperm. my question was, what do you think would work?

also why hybrids have been bred, they are usually genus specific. I.E. B. vagans X B. albopilosum. so that only shows that each genus may have similar penial parts. which may work with each other.

which also may lead to only needing to make genus specific tools to properly artificially insemitane.

like i said i am just speculating. and i may be totally wrong. and you could be right. we wont know though untill its studied. either way im all for it, so long as it is 1. effective- would have to have at least 85% success rates 2. Safe 3. cheap enough for even hobbiest to afford.

id say if those criterea are basically met we could acually in fact have a tremendous break through in the hobby.

 

[rafasani]

I don't think it would need to be genus/sp specific. I think it would only need to be not too soft so it wouldn't bend, but not too hard so it could damage the female in some way. Perhaps some kind of plastic needle?!

 

[JamS]

I believe it is easier to end up causing some damage to female. than positive results ... is a big risk
think that is a risk with more positive responses than negative

 

[Travis K]

I will be using a pipett like similar to these.

 

[codykrr]

so how do you plan on harvesting the sperm?

 

[Travis K]

so how do you plan on harvesting the sperm?

I am going to attempt electrical stimulation to extract the sperm, the same way one extracts venom from spiders and Ts.

 

[codykrr]

ok, so do you plan on sedating the spider as well?

 

[rasputin]

Haha, I'd say it sounds more like Dr. Josef Mengele's genes have been passed on at some juncture in time. Possibly through artificial insemination, ahhaha

 

[Travis K]

ok, so do you plan on sedating the spider as well?

In this case no, I am not sure. B. smithi are so easy to work with, but I have not ruled out CO2 sedation at this point. I am going to get all my thoughts gathered this weekend and possibly make an attempt to extract the sperm. If I do I will take considerable measure to document the event. Maybe RobC should fly into Spokane and assist?

 

[DrAce]

In this case no, I am not sure. B. smithi are so easy to work with, but I have not ruled out CO2 sedation at this point. I am going to get all my thoughts gathered this weekend and possibly make an attempt to extract the sperm. If I do I will take considerable measure to document the event. Maybe RobC should fly into Spokane and assist?

Just a warning... be careful with CO2. It acidifies things, including human blood, quite quickly, and significantly. Sperm might be sensitive to it... Just a guess, but a possibility.

I'd use temperature over CO2

 

[Talkenlate04]

You think that is the case even though the sperm is stored away from the body separately? Contact with the sperm and co2 should be minimal if any right? Just thinking out loud.

 

[forrestpengra]

You think that is the case even though the sperm is stored away from the body separately? Contact with the sperm and co2 should be minimal if any right? Just thinking out loud.

Right but if her internal chemistry becomes slightly acidified it could theoretically render the eggs un-fertilizable or development impossible.

 

[Travis K]

Right but if her internal chemistry becomes slightly acidified it could theoretically render the eggs un-fertilizable or development impossible.

we are referring to harvesting sperm not fertilizing the female. For the record the holiday weekend was way to busy for me to play mad scientist. I did however notice my MM building a sperm web and watched it as long as I could with company over.

 

[Talkenlate04]

Right but if her internal chemistry becomes slightly acidified it could theoretically render the eggs un-fertilizable or development impossible.

Eggs are not present at the point in time when you would be thinking about doing this so I do not think that would be an issue.

 

[David_F]

Honestly, I have no idea. I was, also, thinking out loud.

I don't know either but....

Since you have to basically put the spider in a box and then introduce CO2 to the box to anesthetize the spider, and the sperm is stored on/in the palpal emboli, there might be a chance the sperm is going to be exposed to the CO2. Which brings me to a question...

Is the sperm actually stored *inside* the palpal emboli or is it stored *on* them? The basic structure on most specimens I've seen suggests that it's stored externally and that there is passive transfer, via capillary action, between male and female. It's been a while since I read The Biology of Spiders so I don't remember if it was mentioned. If the sperm is stored externally, on the surface of the emboli, then there is a great chance that it will be exposed to the CO2. It also means that there should be no reason to squeeze the sperm from the emboli. If it's stored *on* the embolus but you squeeze it you're introducing sperm and hemolymph and other non-reproductive fluids into the female. What happens then? Possible infection caused by decaying bodily fluid? A huge immune response in the female that kills the sperm or eggs along with any other invading *agent*?

I think the procedure has great potential and I wish everyone trying it the best of luck. Just be careful and keep detailed notes so that everyone can learn from it. The sperm bank idea is awesome. I just hope we can some day make it to that point.

On a related note.....

Next time, how about someone tries this with a (fully aware) Haplopelma species? I can only imagine how much fun that would be but since they show a fairly reliable sign of successful ferilization they might be the best candidate for the next experiment.

 

[Talkenlate04]

Is the sperm actually stored *inside* the palpal emboli or is it stored *on* them?

It is most definitely store inside the emboli. I have seen many species construct sperm webs and draw up the sperm inside the emboli. I have even seen the discharged sperm from the emboli when the male missed his mark but shot out the sperm anyway. It is shaped like the inside of the emboli and has a cheese like texture.

The basic structure on most specimens I've seen suggests that it's stored externally and that there is passive transfer, via capillary action, between male and female.

I'll have to look for the picture I got of the sperm after it was discharged from the emboli, that is a perfect visual illustration of how it can't be externally stored.


EDIT- Found it.
You can see how its shaped exactly like the palp, tip facing left, but a perfect inside mold of the palp, in this case an ornata.

 

[David_F]

It is most definitely store inside the emboli. I have seen many species construct sperm webs and draw up the sperm inside the emboli. I have even seen the discharged sperm from the emboli when the male missed his mark but shot out the sperm anyway. It is shaped like the inside of the emboli and has a cheese like texture.


I'll have to look for the picture I got of the sperm after it was discharged from the emboli, that is a perfect visual illustration of how it can't be externally stored.


EDIT- Found it.
You can see how its shaped exactly like the palp, tip facing left, but a perfect inside mold of the palp, in this case an ornata.

I've watched a few males of different species draw sperm "into" the embolus as well. Not nearly as many as you have, I'm sure. I've been away for a while. But I've never seen anything that indicated it was definitely drawn "inside" the embolus. The process usually took quite a while which made me think they were using capillary action to draw the sperm *on to* the embolus rather than *sucking it into* the embolus. Let's face it (yes, I'm drawing conclusios from completely unrelated functions), tarantulas can change their blood pressure very quickly when it's necessary (when needed to escape a predator or to capture prey). Why wouldn't they do the same thing when drawing sperm into the embolus? If their secondary sexual organs were somehow related to their sucking stomach I could accept that they were drawing semen into the embolus but, as it stands, I believe that it's stored on the surface of the embolus.

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything but....

If the "sperm packet" comes out shaped like the embolus wouldn't that be an indication it's externally stored? The embolus tapers distally (kind of like a tool used for decorating cakes). Since that is the case, how does the sperm packet start in a bulbous "syringe", come out a very narrow tube, and then hold the shabe of the "syringe"?

I think the shape of the packet you saw was due more to the shape of the spermathecae of the female than the shape of the embolus of the male. As it's been pointed out, males and females have very specifically shaped sexual organs. The shape of the embolus is designed to fit in the spermathecae of the female. And that doesn't rule out hybrids, in case you were thinking bringing that up. It just means that the shape of the embolus or spermathecae (and the chromosomes) of the two species are close enough that it works.

I guess that doesn't answer the question of whether the sperm is stored inside or on the outside of the embolus but, based on Dr. Aces's posts (regarding the longevity of invertebrate sperm outside of the organism), I'd bet that it's stored outside and relies on passive transfer into the female.

I just realized you said the picture was of a sperm packet that was discharged outside of the female. It still surprises me that it would be in the shape of the embolus but I won't dispute it since I haven't done this type of thing myself (not to mention I trust you. ).

EDIT: Wait. Did you say this "plug" was disharged from the male or the female? I know you probably mentioned it earlier but I need the extra clarification for various reasons.

I definitely think this is something we need to look into.Damn, why did I have to let the death of a couple hundred spiders discourage me a few years ago? I could have a decent starter group going for this kind of project going if I had been more dedicated.