Are you as bothered about this as much as I am

[Stylopidae]

Yes very ethical just kill something for no reason at all. how bout you just not do it. Each one of those slings in a living breathing creature you are not it's "gods" you should look up the word ethical.

You need to think what I write in this post over long and hard before you post your reply. Included the first half of my post and not just what you quoted for a reason.


1.) These hybrids were created for a purpose...to double check taxonomical definitions and to allow people to identify hybrids in the hobby. Nothing more.

2.) There is no guarantee these spiders are hybrids that would naturally occurr, thus they cannot be allowed to be sold. I can not guarantee the person I sell them to will not re-sell them, nor can I guarantee the person he sells them to won't re-sell them under a different name. The only exception is to other well known scientists who already have published peer reviewed journal articles. Volker Von Wirth from these boards, for example. This project will be for the sole purpose of letting keepers be able to identify hybrids.

3.) There is a distinct difference between hybirdizing spiders to create new species, and hybridizing spiders for research. It's ironic that you use the term 'playing god' because that is exactly what I am attempting to prevent. I am attempting to prevent people creating new species for the sole reason of their profit.

I believe people creating new species that do not exist in nature (such as the liger) for the sole reason of making a profit off of them is highly unethical. The only way for the hobby to fight against this is for someone to create these hybrids (which will also help double check taxonomical research) and document ways to identify them so people will be better informed about what they are really buying.

These spiders will have many deformities and high mortality rates as a result. As I said before, I cannot guarantee the person I sell them to (with very few exceptions) will not sell them or breed them. I cannot let these spiders be released into the gene pool.

If I find myself unable to care for them, I can not allow them to be released into the gene pool, nor can I sell them for a profit. I even refuse to accept any money at all for these, instead covering all shipping costs to other accredited researchers myself. The first option would be disasterous, as these species would be eventually be mislabeled and interbred with actual species found in nature that are currently in the hobby. Whether this happens by mistake or on purpose does not matter. The second would be unethical by any definition for reasons I've already outlined and for reasons I've yet to explain.

The relevant definitions for ethical, according to dictionary.com

1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.
2. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, esp. the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.

Utilitarianism

the ethical doctrine that virtue is based on utility, and that conduct should be directed toward promoting the greatest happiness of the greatest number of persons.

I have made my position on the pet hobby very clear here on the boards. I hope to eventually open the way for conservation groups and the exotic pet hobby to join hands and use the exotic pet hobby as a gene bank for potentially endangered species, as thousands of people working individually can produce more offspring of people than can individual zoos.

If hybridizing in the pet hobby becomes common, the genes for the wild type (or actual species) are lost forever and the re-establishment of natural populations of previously endangered species that were decimated by various means (over collecting, restored habitat after destruction) now becomes impossible. We lose a valuable conservation tool, and less importantly my life's goal is shot before it even begins.

Utilitarianism is the the theory that the lives of many outweigh the lives of few. I will attempt to care for any un-natural hybrids I create. However I may somehow unforseeably be put into a situation where I am forced to sell off my collection. I may also unforseeably somehow find myself unable to care for them in any manner. Should this happen, selling them is unethical because it pollutes the bloodline with something that would not naturally exist. This would be disasterous in the future if we wished to re-establish natural populations of tarantulas or any other animal that is currently in the exotic pet hobby. I cannot be responsible for what other people do with these spiders, so therefore the only ethical thing to do is to humanely euthanize them to prevent this from happening.

I don't need to do any further thinking on the ethics of this subject. I thought long and hard about this when I first thought up the experiment.

 

[Tunedbeat]

...

Each one of those slings in a living breathing creature you are not it's "gods" you should look up the word ethical.

I would say, we are already playing "God".

 

[Crotalus]

what I said originally was wrong, sorry. I have corrected it.

If they are so closely related , such that they are subspecies, they can have viable young. The BSC is used still to determine the separation of species that cannot be determined by morphorogical identification. True Hybrids are sterile. I learned that from Volker von Wirth and Code Monkey.

This kind of thread comes up every so often and I forget not to try and put this excepted fact out there. I don't think I can convince you, for what ever reason. I'll stop.

True hybrids are sterile? Not Bitis gabonica x Bitis nasicornis offspring.
Animals dont care about what label a taxonomist put on them and what genus they stick them into.
For all we know, some animal groups hybrids turns up sterile and some fertile.
Some mygalomorph genus hybrids turns up sterile and some probably not.
There is no given rule to this.

Also the european frogs Rana lessonae and Rana ridibunda sometimes breed in the wild and the offspring is the species Rana esculenta. Some populations can reproduce with either of the parent species, some with one and some with both. The result of such breeding is either more esculenta offspring and some results in one of the parent species.

http://www.sareptiles.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3001&start=0&sid=808044d4aee328125d237757a909f895
http://hellfirereptiles.com/rhino-gaboon.html

 

[BinarySpider]

Super Loaded Topic

I would have to say this topic is continuous in every single forum on the net which includes hoofed, dog, cat, mink, rodent, bird, fish, invert, etc., and probably even the single celled species of plants and animals. It is never ending and it will never end.

I use to raise champion AKC ChowChows. I personally handled and showed my own champions at AKC sanctioned shows. There is NOT a single ChowChow in any show ring that does not have one or more serious health problems. This is directly do the massive inbreeding in which you have no choice of if you are raising pedigree dogs. In fact every single pure breed dog has some serious health issues directly from the inbreeding. I always hated mix breeds until I saw a BUG. That is pure Pug crossed to a pure Boston Terrier. It looked pretty darn neat to me.

The same goes from the tropical fish industry. Just last weekend I went to get some lemon tetras for my son's frog/fish aquarium. I turned them down. Every single one was deformed to some extent. While looking at several other species in the store many of those had suttle deformities. The employee said it was most likely from the inbreeding done generation after generation after generation by tropical fish breeders in an attempt to maintain purity by the breeders.

Personally I would believe that hybrids would produce a stronger genetic pool of much healthier animals. I also believe that if sold into the general population the hybrid should at least be noted with maybe a...

(species name / breeder name) X (species name / breeder name)

...where the breeder would be the origional source of the animal or line of animals. Many breeders can have the same species name on their website but comparing the animals from each breeder they just may look very different from one another. A very nice looking hybrid could be more valuable than the combined values of the parents.

In the end this planet is running short of genetic material simply because of the lost of wildlife and their habitat. We may have no choice but to consume that Gecho_x_Owl_x_Bass_x_Pig for dinner. It may be all that is left to us for food except for Soylent Green (1973).

Soylent Green Is Made Out Of People

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

BinarySpider

 

[Stylopidae]

I use to raise champion AKC ChowChows. I personally handled and showed my own champions at AKC sanctioned shows. There is NOT a single ChowChow in any show ring that does not have one or more serious health problems. This is directly do the massive inbreeding in which you have no choice of if you are raising pedigree dogs. In fact every single pure breed dog has some serious health issues directly from the inbreeding. I always hated mix breeds until I saw a BUG. That is pure Pug crossed to a pure Boston Terrier. It looked pretty darn neat to me.

You claim to be a dog breeder, yet you know nothing about them. You evidently don't know much about spiders or even biology, either.

Dogs are pretty much all one species, Canis familiaris. Purebred dogs are all dogs that are bred to have one trait or sets of traits. Any dog that does not fit these lines is culled out of the breeding program because it does not have these traits.

The true definition of inbreeding is as follows: the mating of individuals more closely related than the average of the population from which they come. Since most spider breeding is done over the internet, the average hobbiest may not be breeding spiders from the same bloodline theirs is. Carefully choosing who you do your 50/50 splits with can help.

The thing you are overlooking is every species we talk about is just that...a species. Not a certain spider selected for whatever traits it has, it is an actual biological species. As far as classification is concerned, we are talking about spiders that are a major subdivision of a genus or subgenus. The term species is regarded as the basic category of biological classification and is composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species. Dogs are one species. A chowchow, great dane, pug, bug, and one of those rat-dogs Brittney Spears has are all the same species. Brachypelma klassi, Brachypelma smithi and Brachypelma emillia are different species.

Personally I would believe that hybrids would produce a stronger genetic pool of much healthier animals.

The genetic differences between species is why...as many people said earlier in this thread...and please read this next part very, very, very, very closely:

Most hybrids are sterile.

New bloodlines are created every so often. Any animal that is created through sexual reproduction recieves half it's genes from it's parents. It's half related to both of it's parents. Therefore, one fourth of it's DNA came from each grandparent. One eighth of it's DNA came from each of it's eight great grandparent, so on and so forth. New bloodlines are created at the point where the offspring are no more related to their ancestors genetically then they are to their parents.

According to Wade here on the boards, the original stock for the superworms you can buy at petsmart orriginally came from roughly 25 individuals. For arguement's sake, let's say the superworm's DNA had roughly the same number of genes as we do. I'll use the number 24,000. Bob and Cindy came from the same parent.

The first generation recieves 12,000 genes from the father (or Bob) and 12,000 from an unrelated mother...Samantha.
The second recieves 6,000 from that first father
The third, 3,000 from Bob
the fourth 1,500 from Bob
the fifth 750 from Bob
the sixth 375 from Bob
the seventh (we'll round up because you can't recieve half a gene) 188 genes from Bob
the eighth generation: 94
ninth: 47
tenth (again, rounding up) 24
eleventh: 12
generation number twelve: 6
generation number thirteen: 3
the fourteenth generation: 2
fifteenth generation: 1 gene
The sixteenth generation of Bob's progeny is no more related genetically to Cindy's progeny at the sixteenth generation as Bob and Samantha were when they had children. In other words as long as the numbers of whatever species we're talking about are increasing and specimens are bred with those individuals that are less closely related than the average of the population from which they come, it's relatively safe to say that inbreeding will not occurr.

The world is not running short on genetic material. The world is running short of species. Different species do not interbreed in the wild because there is a distinct disadvantage to interbreeding with different species. Often times, the offspring are sterile or deformed to the point where they could not live long enough to reproduce. A rarer occurance, the offspring of the two produce a third species that competes with the two parent species for resources. In one of the links posted earlier, Volker Von Wirth hybridized two species of spider (haplopelma spp.) and only had one sling survive past two years.

Hi,

Leon is right, I've bred Hapl. sp. "longipedum" with Haplopelma lividum. The result is, that at the moment, two Years after this crossbreeding experiment, I have only one alive Hybrid= very high mortality rate! This indicates to me that both Species are real Species in the sense of the biological Species concept after Mayr/Hennig! I'm preparing the description of the Haplopelma sp. "longipedum" but this will still take some time.

Cheers, Volker

So both your assertion that the world is running short on genetic material and your assertion that crossbreeds create stronger spiders are false. The only ethical reasons to create hybrids are to double check taxonomical research. Breeding different strains of Canis familiaris together may indeed strengthen the bloodlines of dogs. This does not apply in this conversation about hybridization because the spiders we are talking about are not merely different strains of the same species. They are different species, not different breeds. Two seconds of research, some common sense and a quick scan of this thread should have told you that.

This site will help you understand what species are:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VA1BioSpeciesConcept.shtml
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VADefiningSpecies.shtml


The relevant definition of breed, in the sense you are using it:

Genetics. a relatively homogenous group of animals within a species, developed and maintained by humans.

The dogs you spoke of earlier are breeds. The animals we are discussing hybridizing are species.

 

[DrAce]

Or may be species...

I'm still questioning weather all the pokies are actually properly divvied up into separate species.

 

[hamfoto]

I don't think there is anything "inherently" wrong with trying a cross-breed. People have to realize that the chances of the mating being successful are highly, highly, highly unlikely...should I say highly again...
These spp. live in two different habitats...two different land masses (India and Sri Lanka). So, has speciation occurred? probably...it's been a long time since the two were connected.
They may be "able" to mate physically, but factors like different palps, sperm incompatability, hybrid viability, etc...are more than likely going to prevent fertilization or kill the zygotes if fertilization took place. And if they do grow, a lot of times they die early in life or could be sterile.
So, there's a lot of factors working against this actually being a possibility. But then again, if it did work...there are a lot of interesting questions to try and answer why...

Chris

 

[BinarySpider]

Wow

You claim to be a dog breeder, yet you know nothing about them. You evidently don't know much about spiders or even

WOW, I did not want to take up a lot of server space with parroted statements such as yours but for you to post with huge letters and then make claims about what I do know and what I do not know about a subject without even the slightest little conception of what my education and or background is, well, your flames are extremely childish in my opinion. Should I have posted my full resume complete with documented proof of my genetic research over the past two decades to make you happy?

While I understand that most forums are somewhat controlled by those who have a larger number of posts I think that your claims that I know nothing and even less about spiders is a feable attempt to discredit my post.

I was actually having fun in this forum until today.

I guess a return flame is in order here. May I suggest that if you are flaming on somebodies post please only state the obvious and not the merely obvious for a biology lesson. Your flaming lesson most certainly does not come up to grade school level content IMHO.

Returning As Merely A Lurker,

BinarySpider

 

[Stylopidae]

WOW, I did not want to take up a lot of server space with parroted statements such as yours

Or you could post your research that disproves what I've said in my post. Everything that I've read on dogs tells me they're all the same species, although I'm starting to think that chichuauas (sp?) and several of the smaller breeds should be referred to subspecies at the very least because I've been told by professional dog breeders in my area that breeding these and any of the largest breeds together results in a deformed offspring or a stillborn litter.

If you've misread my intentions, I sincerely apologize. However, as I pointed out in my earlier post this is something I take to heart. Encouraging people to hybridize species by bringing up information that is relevant in one profession, but not in another is purposeful misinformation.

Especially when sources quoted are people who have described multiple species. Dogs are clearly one species, at least in the context you spoke of in your post. These spiders are different species. End of debate.

If you'd like my qualifications, I freely admit I have none at all. I am transferring from a community college to Iowa State University in the fall to study entomology and microbiology. My arrival is highly anticipated because of my conversations with professors up there.

However, any and all statements I make can be backed up with reliable sources or through further explanation. If you would like to know them, just ask.

Or may be species...

I'm still questioning weather all the pokies are actually properly divvied up into separate species.

I'm actually operating under the assumption that at least one species of Brachypelma is actually a naturally occurring hybrid. We should at least try to properly divvy up species properly before selling hybrids as natural species.

I would email Michael Jacobpi of this site and ask him about his research. I believe he is working on this genus, and he might know who is.

I know there is a way to properly document hybrids, but these would eventually be mislabeled and improperly sold and bred. There is a photo of a hybrid brachypelma on Rick West's website. This spider looks very close to B. emillia and it's easy to see how they could be mixed up.

 

[DrAce]

Also, on the "species" definition, it's an old one, which was imposed by people like Linnaeus (spelling?). It may not actually be as relevant as we're lead to believe. There are plenty of groups of animals who are separated into different species by as little as their song (birds), which does separate them in a biological sense... but they can still have viable offspring.

The sterile hybrid result comes from genetic differences which are so great that they lead to difficulties during meiosis (eg different numbers of chromosomes, leading to aneuploidy, see the mule, and ligers). That definately makes them different species... but if two species CAN interbreed and give VIABLE offspring (of both genders) then surely that implies that there is some difficulty in the definition of the species.

As genetic fingerprinting progresses, I think many of these things will become less important. We'll be much better at describing different species.

 

[phil jones]

do not interfere with nature as man is NOT GOD even if he thinks he is !!!

 

[DrAce]

do not interfere with nature as man is NOT GOD even if he thinks he is !!!

Good! Something on topic!

But:

I assume you don't cook anything? Do you eat soy products? No soy sauce, soy milk or tofu? Most of that is heavily modified.

Then there's wheat products... also modified (not using GE techniques here... but still modified by man). And then there's that beef that is so popular in the UK. Those cows have been changed so much by selective breeding that they have problems breeding them further.

I also hope you intend to set your tarantulas free. That's against god's will too...

Look, almost everything we do, is un-natural (by the definition). It's not helpful to label these things as 'acting like god'... since all you have done is put the two spiders together. If they breed, surely that's an act of god, no?

 

[Talkenlate04]

Very well said Drace........ Its just part of the game. There is no way around it. If we were going to be god oriented about all of this non of us would have caged pets..........
While I am against cross breeding I can concede and admit that there is something to be learned from just about everything we do including cross breeding.

 

[spider_fan]

I have to second what pretty much everyone else has been saying already. I have nothing against it if the s'lings are not sold to an unkowing or irresponsible buyer.

However, with that said I would love to see a hybrid with the looks of P. metallica and the cost of G. rosea.

 

[DrAce]

Well, it wasn't really an argument about hybridization. But I do object to people dismissing arguments by invoking any form of higher being against something thought out and rational.

Now, on the topic of hybrids, I haven't so far seen anything which doesn't boil down to:
"don't do it, cos god doesn't do it"
or
"don't do it, cos I don't want one, and I don't want to be confused about what I'll get in the future"

We don't even know if there are any real viable hybrids out there, do we (by viable I mean ones we know have been further bred on)?

 

[Sheri]

I was actually having fun in this forum until today.

Me too.

I guess a return flame is in order here. May I suggest that if you are flaming on somebodies post please only state the obvious and not the merely obvious for a biology lesson. Your flaming lesson most certainly does not come up to grade school level content IMHO.

Returning As Merely A Lurker,

BinarySpider

As cocky as he came across, he's right on the dog part.

All dog breeds are the same species and therefore, not at all relevant to this conversation.

However, his comment as to your spider biology was over the top.

The last time I checked, this was a hobbyist's forum...
Those with more knowledge after years of studying the subject - are welcome to share it.

But chill out Ches - we weren't all born with an entomology book up our ass.

As for the assumption that all offspring of hybrids will be infertile - we really don't know that. One look at a few spiders long held in captivity (P. irminia being one of them) should tell us that if we decide to create hybrids, we cannot come to that decision by way of a false sense of security that they will absolutely not reproduce and pollute the hobby.

Sheri.

 

[Nitibus]

I'm starting to feel like a thread troll...

May original intent was NOT to restart the hybridization debate, but to draw attention to one very unwise action. Fertile or not, if you're going to give/ sell a T. don't cross mate it before you do so.

Can we all agree to disagree on this hybridization ? Yet agree that crossing and passing on the outcome irresponsible ?

 

[Stylopidae]

But chill out Ches - we weren't all born with an entomology book up our ass.

As for the assumption that all offspring of hybrids will be infertile - we really don't know that. One look at a few spiders long held in captivity (P. irminia being one of them) should tell us that if we decide to create hybrids, we cannot come to that decision by way of a false sense of security that they will absolutely not reproduce and pollute the hobby.

Sheri.

Actually, Sheri...you kind of beat me to my own punch. I've not been myself lately for more than a few reasons. The combined stress of upcoming finals, my transfer away from my closest friends at the school I'm at now, as well as quitting smoking have all taken a toll on my mental state as of late. If you think I've been bad here on the boards, I've been far worse off the boards. It actually took a harshly worded PM from a friend here on the boards to make me realize what an ass I've been.

So in the effort of patching things up and coaxing people out of lurking, I offer my full apology to anyone I've offended. I've been far more acerbic than I realized, more blunt than I normally am, and far more over the top in this thread than I should have been. This is not a proper reason, however it is the true and honest reason. My behaivior was in no way justified.

So, I'll try to think what I'm writing through more than I have been. I usually try to focus more on the information in my threads than how it's delivered and this is something that should change.

So let me clarify my position again, in the way I should have to begin with:

1.) Creating new species for the sole reason of your own profit, and not the benefit of society is wrong.

2.) Hybridizing for the purpose of taxonomical research benefits society. Therefore this is acceptable, as long as the spiders are not released for general sale to the public.

3.) Allowing hybridized spiders into the hobby could weaken the gene pool and basically destroy the species in the hobby. This could be catastrophic if any of these spiders became endangered or extinct in the wild. Extinction is an hourly thing, so you can bet at least one tarantula species has gone extinct this month. It's bad enough that we have to have a sub-forum dedicated to misidentified spiders. Imagine the chaos if hybrids were common.

4.) Although the vast majority of tarantula species are not in trouble, the pet hobby is the driving interest to describe and import new species. Because of this, we do not need to be creating our own new species. This practice makes the pet hobby be taken less seriously to conservation groups, and this is a detriment to anyone and everyone involved.

So again, I offer my heartfelt apology to anyone and everyone who read this thread and was offended.

 

[EricFavez]

I'm starting to feel like a thread troll...

Can we all agree to disagree on this hybridization ? Yet agree that crossing and passing on the outcome irresponsible ?

Man i just dont get it...How is it irresponsible if the purchaser was well aware and was very excited to receive the animal? What if i needed the money once again? And for the people who say "We are playing GOD" ....come on if thats the case everyone who keeps a caged animal is. We decide what..when..it eats. Its life is in our hands no matter what we breed it to. Think people. We control our Ts destiny am i right? So that playing GOD stuff is just stupid.

 

[Stylopidae]

Man i just dont get it...How is it irresponsible if the purchaser was well aware and was very excited to receive the animal? What if i needed the money once again? And for the people who say "We are playing GOD" ....come on if thats the case everyone who keeps a caged animal is. We decide what..when..it eats. Its life is in our hands no matter what we breed it to. Think people. We control our Ts destiny am i right? So that playing GOD stuff is just stupid.

These concerns have already been addressed several times:

1.) Creating new species for the sole reason of your own profit, and not the benefit of society is wrong.

3.) Allowing hybridized spiders into the hobby could weaken the gene pool and basically destroy the species in the hobby. This could be catastrophic if any of these spiders became endangered or extinct in the wild. Extinction is an hourly thing, so you can bet at least one tarantula species has gone extinct this month. It's bad enough that we have to have a sub-forum dedicated to misidentified spiders. Imagine the chaos if hybrids were common.

4.) Although the vast majority of tarantula species are not in trouble, the pet hobby is the driving interest to describe and import new species. Because of this, we do not need to be creating our own new species. This practice makes the pet hobby be taken less seriously to conservation groups, and this is a detriment to anyone and everyone involved.