Anything strange about this regalis?

[Aviara]

I did not mean to imply that Chimerism cannot occur in snakes, other reptiles, etc. I actually have a great uncle who a few years back was diagnosed with testicular cancer. A little while later it was discovered that the "tumor" they had seen wasn't actually cancer, but the remnants of a twin that had been partially absorbed by his body and somehow had remained there throughout his life. Not Chimerism in the sense that he took on the genetic material of a consumed twin, but similar. The brindle color that rarely occurs in horses, mainly in thoroughbred racehorses, is believed to be a form of Chimerism where the offspring inherits both its normal coat color and, in areas, the color from a twin's genetic material. Certainly Chimerism can and does occur in vertebrates. However, the commonly bred snake morphs (albino cornsnakes, pastel ball pythons, etc.) are usually skin pigmentation changes due to genetic mutation. These don't have an effect on internal structure, and are inheritable. The tarantulas discussed in this thread are more than just a tarantula with a different color pattern - they have internal changes, however deep, that somehow also alter their internal structure. Therefore, this isn't just something that can and should be bred as a new "color morph" of P. regalis. If it is a case of Chimerism, it would not be a simple inheritable trait. If it's a mutation or true Chimerism, either way it will be interesting to see how (if) it effects these tarantulas through their life.

 

[Tarac]

Right, it's the part about it implying something internal is going on as well that I was referring to. Chimerism can be as dramatic as a hermaphrodite or it can be something simply like a patch of discolored skin and nothing more. It covers a wide spectrum. So this spider may have a double folio only and be perfectly normal inside or it may also have something unusual going on inside of it as well. Chimerism isn't necessarily a devastating condition- in fact more often than not it goes unnoticed.

It sounds like your uncle was a chimera. That "tumor" is a lump of cells that do not belong to him technically, not a malfunctioning cluster of his own cells. That would indeed qualify him as a true chimera. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

Interesting that horses have a brindle pattern- that same "tiger striping" pattern also frequently shows up in chimeric humans as well. They are referred to as "blaschkos lines" in people:

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/images/ask/blaschkos_lines.jpg

One could easily imagine that if we were furry that pattern would result in a brindled appearance.

 

[catfishrod69]

I figure i will when the time comes. I have 2 adult females, and a few other unsexed, so its not a huge hurry to breed her. If it happens, it happens.

Are you planning on trying to breed her???

---------- Post added 01-10-2013 at 03:02 PM ----------

Thanks man. Hope to see new pics of your girl when the time comes.

@catfishrod, no worries. Cool pattern on your spider.

 

[Bugmom]

I think what Khil is missing is that, unlike snakes where color morphs only effect the outer pigments, in tarantulas color is a reflection of inner anatomy.

I didn't know that, and frankly don't think that is common knowledge in the tarantula hobby for most people. I didn't get what the big deal was either.

 

[Tarac]

I didn't know that, and frankly don't think that is common knowledge in the tarantula hobby for most people. I didn't get what the big deal was either.

It's because that is not exactly accurate. My post above explains- can be just patterning or could suggest something about the internal anatomy. I personally doubt there is much, if anything at all, wrong with the internal anatomy simply because it has survived thus far. My other posts explain why calling it a "morph" is incorrect, it isn't tarantula specific but rather a question of genetics and the phenotype this spider presents which is very typical of a two-genome organism- cat, bird, butterfly or spider.

It's not that anyone is expected to know this, it's that the information was already presented in the thread but rather than actually reading it there was a dismissive and uninformed declaration made. It's like when people are scolded around here for not doing their research that is readily available only this time the research was already done for him/her and in the exact same thread being commented on. I would be like asking "does my rosea need wet substrate" in a thread called "rosies like it dry"- right?

The point is that the spider is fascinating and the reasons why are discussed ad nauseum. No one expected it to be common knowledge which is why there is in depth discussion with examples and links. The possible mechanisms explaining a poly-genomic organism are not common knowledge... or they weren't until they were spelled out fairly clearly before the user posted. No one expected it to be common knowledge which is why there is in depth discussion with examples and links, no assumptions made about other's backgrounds- this is so it can be common knowledge, so that others who might not have this information set can appreciate what an interesting spider this is. However I would think it is expected that if one feels compelled to be a part of the discussion and make claims like they are fact that one takes the time to read a thread before one comments.

 

[angelarachnid]

I have been asked to comment on this thread.

Nice pics of abdopagus markings.

Sorry to spoil all the conjecture but it is basic conjoining and just like people who are born with an extra finger it is not genetically inheritable and definately NOT a sign of inbreeding (I cannot believe this inbreeding stuff is still being bantered around after 25+years in the hobby............and still no proof).

I tried mating conjoined F1 siblings a few years back and all the young were normal.

Mate him/her there is a 99.99999999999999% chance all the young will be normal if any are not well it is just another conjoined specimen be it abdopagus, carapagus or carabdopagus.

I have seen this in varying degrees in most pokes, P. irminia, C. elegans and a couple of others, where the only conjoining was in the spermatheca. I have seen this in wild caught specimens as well as c/b.

I have published a few articles on this in the BTS and DeArGe journals..................they might be online somewhere,

R

 

[Tarac]

That's what it looked like to me, some form of "twin" condition. Did you find that all the spiders were technically conjoined (for those that are not obvious, such as this spider) or chimera? Similar and sometimes related conditions, would you be of the opinion that this spider is a true conjoined or a chimera or both? I'll look for the articles, thanks for the info.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Both "strange" regalis from the sac moulted.
I managed to save the moult from the double regalis and have spread it out so will photograph it later and get pics of the spider once it has hardened up.

 

[grayzone]

:unsure: anxiously waits

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Here is a picture of the moult.
Anything look out of the ordinary? Female/Male?

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Here is her/his first meal after the moult.

 

[catfishrod69]

Not really sure on the sex. I almost wanna say i see a flap there but cant be certain.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Some updated pics:

 

[grayzone]

Im not seeing any regalis spermatheca. Id assume male

 

[Ceratogyrus]

The folio is looking female to me, so will wait for the next moult.

 

[grayzone]

that would probably be best.
Honestly i cant quite figure out which way to even look at the pic. Either way, nothing is clear to my eyes. I would imagine spermatheca would be blatantly present at this things size though.

Hope it turns out whichever gender you want it to be

 

[Ceratogyrus]

It's only about 7cm I think. The cephalothorax is at the bottom of the pic. Looks like possibly a very see through spermathecae, but next moult will confirm.

 

[grayzone]

View attachment 112930
yeah, i think i see what you mean (i hope)... the little whitish U shape up top? I figured that was indentation of what the "male indicator/belly button" would be from the outside. I guess it could go either way though given the size .. i will have to continue following this thread haha

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Yeah, that's it. Really hoping for female though.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Here is the sister/brother of the double folio regalis.
Not quite as strange, but also a unique pattern on the abdomen.