Another heating debate

[Kendricks]

I think it's hilarious how some here think that they know more then biologists with PhDs!!

I think the irony in this sentence just sexually harassed me...

 

[Paul1126]

I've been keeping Ts for under a year, I've observed when the room gets hot enough most Ts will go towards the heat source, which is why lamps and mats are a nono, unless you do it so it's regulated with a thermostat and not in direct contact with an enclosure.

To be honest, there is no reason to have heat mats or lamps for Ts when you can use space heaters.

 

[sasker]

explains away the death as "Impaction"

Could the impaction have been caused by the high metabolism due to high temperatures...
Anyway, I would like to know more about the death rate of the tarantulas of @Whitelightning777 . If this is unusually high, perhaps it is good to reconsider the husbandry.

 

[Moakmeister]

I think the irony in this sentence just sexually harassed me...

I just punctured a lung laughing at this

 

[Whitelightning777]

Could the impaction have been caused by the high metabolism due to high temperatures...
Anyway, I would like to know more about the death rate of the tarantulas of @Whitelightning777 . If this is unusually high, perhaps it is good to reconsider the husbandry.

When I found the balfouri passed away, a huge amount of feces had been ejected from the T behind the spider. The spider was in a full death curl. No other spider has passed away.

Internal damage during the molt is suspected as the cause. My suspicion is that mold might've had something to do with it.

The others are doing fine. No one will knows for sure what causes impaction.

 

[Luke Alexander]

I live in AZ, I don’t know why I read all of this.

 

[miamc12321]

When I found the balfouri passed away, a huge amount of feces had been ejected from the T behind the spider. The spider was in a full death curl. No other spider has passed away.

Internal damage during the molt is suspected as the cause. My suspicion is that mold might've had something to do with it.

The others are doing fine. No one will knows for sure what causes impaction.

One of yours passed??

When I found the balfouri passed away, a huge amount of feces had been ejected from the T behind the spider. The spider was in a full death curl. No other spider has passed away.

Internal damage during the molt is suspected as the cause. My suspicion is that mold might've had something to do with it.

The others are doing fine. No one will knows for sure what causes impaction.

Wonder why?? So sad! Poor baby!!

 

[boina]

I think it's hilarious how some here think that they know more then biologists with PhDs!!

Just because of this inane statement:

I'm a biologist with a PhD. You know what I learned about tarantulas in all my years of studying? Zero. Zilch. Nothing. I know about spiders because I keep them and I know how to do effective research on the web and elsewhere.

Your understanding of science, however, is seriously flawed. The 'experiments' you did are nothing more than anecdotes. My professional opinion on them:

1. Sample size prohibitively small - no conclusions possible
2. Time the experiments were run much to short - no conclusions possible
3. No clearly defined measurements - all measurements are based on subjective 'impressions' of the experimenter and therefore invalid
4. No attempt to reproduce the experiments - Reproducibility not given.
5. Some of the experiments constitute unnecessary animal abuse (keeping spiders at 95F) - it is well documented that this is detrimental for any spider and will damage or outright kill the subject.

My professional assessment:

A serious lack in background knowledge and scientific understanding led to poor experimental concepts prohibiting any scientific conclusions to be drawn. The conclusions actually drawn are in no way supported by the data. Interpretations are presented as facts. Critical evaluation, i.e. what other factors need to be considered, long term implications, what other conclusions are possible or even more likely... is non existent.

My personal assessment:

You are either a troll or just unbelievably bad at science. Probably a troll. Nobody can be that bad at science.

Edited to add: There are quite a few keepers on here that know more about aspects of tarantula keeping than I do. I've asked for help before and I will very likely do it again and I appreciate any help I get. I'm not conceited enough to think a PhD makes me in any way more knowledgeable of Ts than people who learned the more practical way.

 

[miamc12321]

Just because of this inane statement:

I'm a biologist with a PhD. You know what I learned about tarantulas in all my years of studying? Zero. Zilch. Nothing. I know about spiders because I keep them and I know how to do effective research on the web and elsewhere.

Your understanding of science, however, is seriously flawed. The 'experiments' you did are nothing more than anecdotes. My professional opinion on them:

1. Sample size prohibitively small - no conclusions possible
2. Time the experiments were run much to short - no conclusions possible
3. No clearly defined measurements - all measurements are based on subjective 'impressions' of the experimenter and therefore invalid
4. No attempt to reproduce the experiments - Reproducibility not given.
5. Some of the experiments constitute unnecessary animal abuse (keeping spiders at 95°C) - it is well documented that this is detrimental for any spider and will damage or outright kill the subject.

My professional assessment:

A serious lack in background knowledge and scientific understanding led to poor experimental concepts prohibiting any scientific conclusions to be drawn. The conclusions actually drawn are in no way supported by the data. Interpretations are presented as facts. Critical evaluation, i.e. what other factors need to be considered, long term implications, what other conclusions are possible or even more likely... is non existent.

My personal assessment:

You are either a troll or just unbelievably bad at science. Probably a troll. Nobody can be that bad at science.

Hello, another real expert! Really!!

 

[dangerforceidle]

5. Some of the experiments constitute unnecessary animal abuse (keeping spiders at 95°C) - it is well documented that this is detrimental for any spider and will damage or outright kill the subject.

Small note: this should read 95°F, or 35°C. Still too warm for comfort of most invert species if kept there for any extended period of time, but not quite as insane as just under the boiling point of water.

 

[Staehilomyces]

Nobody can be that bad at science.

Teach my biology classmates for a week...then you'll see differently. One genius listed "telescope" as an aspect of equipment required for our recent assignment experimenting with Artemia (brine shrimp).

Anyway, in regards to the OP, you are talking about being more "progressive" but what you're promoting are old, dated methods that experienced people know better than to use. As for the "zoos do it, so it must be right", well I must say this reminds me of a debate I foolishly got into with a YT user commenting on one of Dark Den's videos. He was going on about the enclosures being too small, and like you, used the same appeal to authority towards zoos. My response to you is the same as my response to him: zoos very frequently misidentify their animals, and get a plethora of other facts wrong. Would you really trust them with husbandry?

 

[boina]

Small note: this should read 95°F, or 35°C. Still too warm for comfort of most invert species if kept there for any extended period of time, but not quite as insane as just under the boiling point of water.

Aaarrgh! You are so right! Thank you for pointing that out, I edited it!

 

[Whitelightning777]

Bottom line: Heat mats suck.
Space heaters suck why? In my opinion dries out enclosure’s to quickly and I’ve had a harder time been able to have a good egg sac.
Heat lamps is a go, love it never had problems with heat lamps. My success rate for fertile egg sacs greatly increases when using a heat lamp. Red heat lamps is the best. Out of the three choices heat lamps is the best.

So, having a vertical heat source above the spider helps more then to either side when breeding?

I'm not currently planning on breeding but I've thought about getting my L Klugi a boyfriend for that. They're great spiders and it seems that egg sacs are harder to get from this species as opposed to LDs or LPs.

The problem is time and I'm not sure if anyone world be interested.

 

[Whitelightning777]

The only reason for the experiment was just to see how much of a difference temperature actually makes.

You shouldn't really need to get hundreds of spiders, just observe the same ones at different temperatures.

In terms of behavior, they use more of the space when they're warmer.

If I try to feed my L klugi at say 75 or below, she just sits in the hide and won't even attack the cricket or roach until it's practically on top of her. It's just ambush predation.

When I keep her at her normal temperature as I normally set it up, she'll chase after and dig up feeders. If I put in one or two crickets, she'll go around the entire enclosure sometimes for 10 to 15 minutes later looking for others.

In fact, when she's cold, she's never even once attacked the water dish when I fill it up!!

Obviously an active predator that proactively hunts food and sits out in plain sight is healthier then one that isn't doing that.

Sick animals aren't as active and don't want to eat as much as healthier ones do.

I've against my better judgement actually turned off the equipment and allowed my cages to get to the 68 to 70 degrees that is the temperature of my condo.

The end result can only be described as zombification.

They are tropical animals. They didn't evolve in climate controlled office buildings.

I can't raise the entire temperature of my home because the other person I live with has fibromyalgia and is on full disability for other medical issues. She needs it to be like that to be comfortable.

Strangely enough, the behavior of the feeders was unchanged, which can become real bad news.

 

[Ant]

You shouldn't really need to get hundreds of spiders, just observe the same ones at different temperatures.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this point.

ABSOLUTELY NO ONE WOULD EVER REFUTE THAT A COLD BLOODED CREATURE MOVES AND REACTS QUICKER UNDER WARMER TEMPERATURES. NO ONE ON THIS THREAD HAS ARGUED OTHERWISE.

You seem to have gotten so lost, you've completely lost sight of your original argument, that a T with your heatmat setup, functions better than a T kept in a room with a space heater. THAT would require hundreds of T's to test.

 

[Kendricks]

You shouldn't really need to get hundreds of spiders, just observe the same ones at different temperatures.

How not to science 101

 

[D Sherlod]

In fact, when she's cold, she's never even once attacked the water dish when I fill it up!!

Obviously an active predator that proactively hunts food and sits out in plain sight is healthier then one that isn't doing that.

Most of my Tarantulas have attacked the water dish during filling.....when I first got them.... most don' bother now...they know it' not prey

Most predators hide and rest ... hunt by stalking and ambush. Grazers stay out in open and stay active
Spiders are both predator and prey

Predators can' afford to waist energy by constantly moving and pacing....
I forget the average but in the wild aprox 1 of every 4 attacks are successful

 

[Whitelightning777]

The tarantula probably doesn't care about why it's warm.

The fire hazard posed by space heaters plus the fact that most Americans don't naturally live in temps of 80+ degrees precludes using a space heater.

They are also not allowed by my HOA and weren't allowed in my previous apartment either. I'm not sure if that's a Baltimore wide law or not. Either way they aren't allowed.

Unlike space heaters, my setups are 50 state legal.

Oh, and your homeowners insurance will not pay you if you are breaking the law in your jurisdiction.

Of course, if you do live in a warmer home at 77 or 80 degrees, adding heat won't really help that much. It's interesting how individuals are willing to complain but won't try it themselves..

I did research impaction. No one really knows the cause and metabolism isn't suspected as one.

I might do M balfouri at some time in the future but I just don't have room for any more. Since they are reported to grow faster in a communal setup, getting at least 2 or 3 is probably the way to go.

 

[Toddydog]

The fire hazard posed by space heaters plus the fact that most Americans don't naturally live in temps of 80+ degrees precludes using a space heater.

Alright, so I use heat pads for my reptiles. I've had a tortoise for about 6-7 years and over the years heat pads have gotten very unsafe and we had to replace them. They would bubble up and some the temperatures would start becoming unsafe. Heating pads are in no way safe and I would argue are far worse than a space heater.

 

[Belegnole]

@Whitelightning777 I admire your tenacity, however I just feel I need to comment.

I don't care how you provide a proper environment for your tarantulas, or other pets as long as it provides the correct environment. That said you keep coming back to space heaters causing fires. You even made a statement about legality. Last I checked properly manufactured space heaters are legal in all 50 states. Yes because they are often improperly used they can cause fires. However every way you have mentioned using is also a variation of a space heater. Each one can start a fire if the right conditions occur. In fact plugging too many devices into a wall socket causes fires as well.

But that's not why people debate your methods. They are arguing for what has been found over time to be the most effective and safest method to provide heat for a group of animals. That safety is primarily focused on the animals themselves not the home.

For many; micromanaging multiple heating setups over time is not possible and can lead to dead specimens. Because of that there is an avoidance of the methods you choose to employ. Like I said, I don't care how you do things as long as the result is healthy animals. But for you as a newer keeper yourself to tell others including other new keepers that your way 100% safe is irresponsible.

I'm not even going to get into the electrical draw a collection would require with lighting, tape, pads, etc. Or, the cost of bringing a room up to code to deal with it.