A hobbyist's predicament: need your advice!

[Chuckmater]

This pic is hilarious!! I love the pun...'T' party lol

 

[darkness975]

I think that is the heart of the matter: "There is nothing wrong with keeping OWs as long as you've taken measures to keep them away from the children, like you would any other potentially dangerous object or creature in the house"

Exactly.

You would not let a child play with Firearms or Cleaning products and we take precautions to prevent them from accessing these items. Same for Tarantulas and Scorpions. Not just the OWs or "dangerous" ones but all of them. You would not want any Tarantula to bite a child, NW or OW.

 

[Garth Vader]

I think it is important though that if one keeps OW, especially with kids or pets in the house, that they not be an idiot owner. No handling, no playing around. Treat them with respect. Rehouse carefully. These things should always occur but if they get loose, you endanger the lives of the pets and kids.

Now as for CPS, in general, I do not believe they would be overly concerned just simply if someone had an OW collection as long as they were responsible with it. Someone could call and make a report to CPS about anything and then they decide if it is worth investigating. Sometimes they just take an informational report for future reference. I used to work on the treatment end of child welfare- treating kids who were removed from homes due to abuse- and let me tell you it is some brutal stuff. Like nightmare scenarios. So if CPS was called about someone keeping OWs, they might take down the information IF there was reason to believe that the child was in danger. Now if a kid ends up in the ER because of an OW bite? I do believe CPS could be involved especially if it seemed neglectful in any way. It can absolutely be considered neglectful to allow children access to a dangerous or deadly thing with our proper supervision and general safety precautions.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Monumental difference, as dogs can be trained and millions are around kids every day without incident...the cars they take to school are considerably more dangerous. Just like some drivers are dangerous, most are not.


Ever see "our Gang" with buckwheat and spanky? Pitbull.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/cf/38/5d/cf385df5152d7fdb36b5503ddee814b9--nanny-dog-the-nanny.jpg

http://www.showbiz411.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/our-gang213.jpg

By your reasoning these kids are all lucky to be alive.

Dogs are far more enriching in a child's life than a danger.

Yes you're damn right still I continue to believe that certain serious (when not deadly) incidents happened here in Italy involving dogs & childrens (and not always only childrens) were due to this:

- Pathetic 'masters', worst trainers (you know, those criminals that 'train' their dogs with electrocution and whatever for turn those poor beasts into 'private property' killer defenders.

- Childrens annoying dogs to the core. Aren't dogs the issue here, but certain childrens that really annoy the dogs in every possible (moron) way -- again, their parents fault, of course.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

IMO there's not an answer for your question, @Chuckmater, btw. There's not a rule. It's always a question of logic, common sense, and other things like that like for everything in life, from 'weapons' to 'driving' to whatever (think about those moron-parents that leaved their little childrens closed in their cars, or alone in the bath tub).

With that said, of course, OW (and certain OW inverts/genus/species more) venom potency and little childrens doesn't mix, so this is a thing to consider always. 'You' don't want to end with a Scolopendra subspinipes (yeah they aren't T's, I know) that, on the loose, bites a little one. Frankly the % of serious .... is very high, on that scenario.

 

[Chuckmater]

I think it is important though that if one keeps OW, especially with kids or pets in the house, that they not be an idiot owner. No handling, no playing around. Treat them with respect. Rehouse carefully. These things should always occur but if they get loose, you endanger the lives of the pets and kids.

Now as for CPS, in general, I do not believe they would be overly concerned just simply if someone had an OW collection as long as they were responsible with it. Someone could call and make a report to CPS about anything and then they decide if it is worth investigating. Sometimes they just take an informational report for future reference. I used to work on the treatment end of child welfare- treating kids who were removed from homes due to abuse- and let me tell you it is some brutal stuff. Like nightmare scenarios. So if CPS was called about someone keeping OWs, they might take down the information IF there was reason to believe that the child was in danger. Now if a kid ends up in the ER because of an OW bite? I do believe CPS could be involved especially if it seemed neglectful in any way. It can absolutely be considered neglectful to allow children access to a dangerous or deadly thing with our proper supervision and general safety precautions.

That's just it; rehousings must be done safely.

IMO there's not an answer for your question, @Chuckmater, btw. There's not a rule. It's always a question of logic, common sense, and other things like that like for everything in life, from 'weapons' to 'driving' to whatever (think about those moron-parents that leaved their little childrens closed in their cars, or alone in the bath tub).

With that said, of course, OW (and certain OW inverts/genus/species more) venom potency and little childrens doesn't mix, so this is a thing to consider always. 'You' don't want to end with a Scolopendra subspinipes (yeah they aren't T's, I know) that, on the loose, bites a little one. Frankly the % of serious .... is very high, on that scenario.

That's just it! I draw that the line at scorpions and centipedes...those are out of the question with children in my house, but OW seem to be the 'grey area'.

 

[Chuckmater]

IMO they are easy enough to lock away, whether that means locking a room, a closet or making a cabinet.



That said, if you feel there is danger, no one would or should fault you for going NW, kids are more important than OWs.

To play devil's advocate; Guns don't escape the cabinet on their own...and in the unlikely event that they do, they don't slip underneath the door and crawl into the unsuspecting baby's room at night...Tarantulas can lol

 

[Chris LXXIX]

That's just it! I draw that the line at scorpions and centipedes...those are out of the question with children in my house, but OW seem to be the 'grey area'.

Well, I know what you mean but while indeed Asian 'pedes in particular and a lot of scorpions species (unlike for T's, no matter NW/OW) are loaded with a potentially lethal venom, I wouldn't view as a 'grey area', no matter, the venom potency likes the ones of (genus) Poecilotheria, Haplopelma, S.calceatum etc when and only when/if little childrens are/can be 'bite involved'.

Imagine the worst/rare (no matter) scenario: a 'Pokie' or S.calceatum bite in the head/neck area of a 2/3/5 years children.

I tell you this: wouldn't exactly love to be in said keeper-parents position at the Hospital (I don't know how in the U.S the whole thing can work, but I 100% guarantee you that here in Italy if a little children ends into a severe situation due to a bite delivered from a badass African tree climber spider supposed - and I say supposed - to live in West Africa only, the Docs starts to ask questions), nor here in this site I would (hypothetically) reply to a desperate Father/Mom thread about that saying something like: "Oh don't worry... so far no one died" and stuff like that with the classic 'tranquility' of always.

So, like everything in life, careful always is mandatory. What never happened in 50 years can happen in 5 minutes.

 

[cold blood]

To play devil's advocate; Guns don't escape the cabinet on their own...and in the unlikely event that they do, they don't slip underneath the door and crawl into the unsuspecting baby's room at night...Tarantulas can lol

i made no such gun comparison.

 

[Nightshady]

Question:

Is it responsible to have OW species, as a parent of young children, given the possibility of an accident (however unlikely)? Wouldn't the consequences prove disastrous if child protective services were to be notified of any such event? Is it responsible/admirable to part ways with dozens of OW species when a baby is born in the family? Or better put, is it shameful for a hobbyist NOT TO dispose of his/her OW collection when children are in the picture?

Thoughts would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Think of it this way... it is infinitely more probable that a baby or child is attacked by the family dog than bitten by a spider.

I wouldn't get rid of them personally.

 

[Chuckmater]

i made no such gun comparison.

My bad lol, someone else used the gun cabinet illustration

 

[Grace Cannell]

I saw this turn in to an argument on the facebook group. Personally, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. Tarantulas aren't emotionally intelligent in terms that they bond with their owner so if someone wants to give them away because they have little ones on the way then that is their call, providing they are given to someone who is going to look after them properly of course. The tarantula isn't going to have major abandonment issues. On the other hand I do not think keeping T's and having children is wrong either, it's a bit like the bleach and the knives, you baby proof where they are kept. A child ingesting bleach is going to have one sure outcome, the same applies to if they get their hands in a vivarium, the bottom line is someone is going to get hurt. So providing you child proof where you keep your Ts then there shouldn't be a problem. I do not intend of getting rid of mine when I eventually start a family but I will be making the necessary precautions.
Using dogs as a comparison is interesting as they are totally different to Ts and can flip out for a whole variety of reasons. Personally I have never fully trusted my family dog with babies, he's never bitten anyone but he can't tell me he is having an off day or he has tooth ache etc. I think with any potential risk, taking precautions is necessary.

 

[miss moxie]

There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. To me, people who start with an OW and have young children around are irresponsible. I wouldn't go straight for the throat and call them negligent parents-- but irresponsible for sure.

Children are chaotic neutral. They ALREADY attract trouble like wildfire. Everything dangerous you add to their environment is always going to be on you. That includes detergent pods, because kids will eat them because they have zero self-preservation instincts.

More than 3.4 million children experience an unintentional household injury every year and 2,300 children under 15 die from these unintentional injuries.

With every additional danger in your house, firearm, heavy and unstable furniture, detergent pods, a bath tub-- your risk of your kid getting hurt increases. That's just life. So it's your job to make responsible choices and to be responsible enough to make those dangers as inaccessible as possible by locking them up, keeping your children supervised, etc.

 

[cold blood]

My bad lol, someone else used the gun cabinet illustration

just saw that myself...lol

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I saw this turn in to an argument on the facebook group. Personally, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. Tarantulas aren't emotionally intelligent in terms that they bond with their owner so if someone wants to give them away because they have little ones on the way then that is their call, providing they are given to someone who is going to look after them properly of course. The tarantula isn't going to have major abandonment issues. On the other hand I do not think keeping T's and having children is wrong either, it's a bit like the bleach and the knives, you baby proof where they are kept. A child ingesting bleach is going to have one sure outcome, the same applies to if they get their hands in a vivarium, the bottom line is someone is going to get hurt. So providing you child proof where you keep your Ts then there shouldn't be a problem. I do not intend of getting rid of mine when I eventually start a family but I will be making the necessary precautions.
Using dogs as a comparison is interesting as they are totally different to Ts and can flip out for a whole variety of reasons. Personally I have never fully trusted my family dog with babies, he's never bitten anyone but he can't tell me he is having an off day or he has tooth ache etc. I think with any potential risk, taking precautions is necessary.

Ah ah, I remember when those #@!?/ Italian government of back then (and 99% of the whole 'opposition') banned every arachnid in the blink of an eye, and no one (aside us, keepers) gave a single atom of .... - they tried, years later, to question the keeping of Pitbull etc (which I have absolutely nothing against, I'm saying this before the Pitbull luvers starts to freak out and annoy me) everyone, from vets to politician to whatever, jumped out in defence.

T's and the whole T's market doesn't move cash at all, a nothing if compared a 360° to other animals, another thing to consider when ban are discussed or in place, if 'you' doesn't move/make cash, 'you' are nothing those days.

I loved what you said:
"So providing you child proof where you keep your Ts then there shouldn't be a problem. I do not intend of getting rid of mine when I eventually start a family but I will be making the necessary precautions."

Back then to say a thing like that in regards of T's and boom! everyone watched you like a deranged perverted maniac

 

[Grace Cannell]

I think I follow you Chris! Sadly I believe the Pitbull terrier is banned here in the UK, which is a real shame as they didn't get their reputation on their own.

If people decide to question a child's safety because the parents have animals that can be stored away safely out of a child's reach then we best get a ban on pretty much every household object, pet, tool etc etc etc. As Miss Moxie has correctly put, children can get themselves in to a whole heap of sticky situations. I used to stick buttons up my nose to the point they would get in my lungs, it doesn't take much to get a child sent to A&E. I work in an environment where I know better than to leave a pen in the reach of a child so again like Miss Moxie says it really is irresponsible if careful measures are not taken or if a parent wants an OW T as their first. I would hope people do their homework before creating a home that houses both inverts and children but then again, not everyone does.

 

[Chuckmater]

It seems that a unanimous opinion has arisen: keeping OW Ts is ok, IF you child proof the heck out of your home.

Many of you are making the comparison between OW Ts and dangerous household objects, but it's still important to realize that harmful detergents and guns don't have a mind of their own, whereas Ts can wander around the house if they escape. I just don't see how, in the event of an accident with a child involved, the T owner could have any justification to defend their case. Simply saying: "well it's no different than having bleach in the house" would not get you far with Child Protective Services. Or maybe I'm wrong? Thoughts?

 

[BC1579]

I think it would be no different than any other time an accident happens. If a kid gets hurt in a home where it appears that reasonable effort was made to provide a safe environment, then it's a sad situation but I doubt any charges would be pressed.

On the other hand, when the authorities show up and there's no semblance of order or a safe home then there may be some issues to be addressed between the authorities and the keeper.

 

[Grace Cannell]

I agree, but a T very much lives in the here and now, a T that has escaped has done so because there were circumstances that enabled it to do so. I am not saying that every owner who has had an escapee has been careless, but I would really like to think someone with children will take every possible risk in to account. A tarantula does not think "I am going to escape and I am going to find the baby's room and bite the baby". A tarantula bites because it has sensed the presence of a perceived threat or food in that given moment. I would class that scenario as an accident resulting from appropriate measures not being taken. You could almost say that a tarantula has just as much will to harm a child as a bottle of bleach does. It doesn't at all but in the wrong circumstances, harm can happen. I personally don't want any of my Ts escaping whether I have children or not so measures to avoid an escape should already be taken for the T's safety if anything. Any pet can be a risk to a child or baby, cats sit on babies because they're warm and that alone is very dangerous. I am struggling to put this as coherently as I would like but my cold and poorly sinuses are making that hard haha.

 

[Grace Cannell]

In relation to CPS, I agree no it will not hold much of an argument because tarantulas aren't exactly a common household belonging but CPS will take a bite from a cat or a dog or a rodent equally as seriously. My mum got random visits from the social services because I rolled myself off my baby changer and bumped my head.