$350 sling recovery (Pamphobeteus sp. Solaris)

Ella1984

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Aug 9, 2019
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20190921_103755.jpg Do you, guys think, antibiotics will work on Tarantulas also? They always working on any live creature on the planet, including our little pet fish we keep home in small tanks. So, I think, why not T's? They must work for T's also...
Well... Here is the story which (thanks God) ending up well... I hate writing, but decided, that this information and pick up theme like this on the forum is very important and can be very helpful for everyone who keep tarantulas.
Recently I got few Pamphobeteus sp. Solaris slings. Nice slings, all around 2" (well 1.5" LEGS and body about 0.5" :)))) )
In few days I noticed one become very lame on his hind leg. Definitely lame. He was barely touching the ground with this leg, while walking, and quickly picking it up from the ground. I was very worried that he may have problems molting because of this bed leg. Not sure how he injured this leg, I never even took him out of his box.
Well in 2 days he completely dropped this leg off his body. It was great, so I will not worry about molting any more. But....after this, about 2-3 days later I noticed he become very weak. He was not interested in food any more, he doesn't move much and his legs start to curl under him :( and very weird and slow waving his front legs in the air and lifting front of his body up, while butt still laying on the ground. It look the same, like animal in severe paid laying and moving his body, so you can clearly understand that it's in pain.
Day 1 of trying to save my fuzzy baby. Immediately I replaced dirt with wet paper towel sheets, fill fresh water in his water dish and put his face in the water. Left in over night.
Day 2. In the morning found him in the same position - face in the water, like I left it. Evening - same thing. And legs curling under it. Every time I stretching legs out, to find them curling again (middle legs and last hind one). And same weird slow front legs waving in the air.
Day 3. My brain was thinking...thinking what to do? WHAT CAN I DO? First thought was - he got infection in that wound where he dropped his leg. How to treat infection? Answer: antibiotics. I put some antibiotic cream on that spot where he dropped leg. And in fresh water I put 2 drops on Penicillin. Penicillin is very weak antibiotic, compared to those modern once we have not. It is very first antibiotic was ever created, but it still does the job. Few years ago I bought a pony with severe lungs infection and it completely recovered in 3 weeks on Penicillin only, but large dosage. So...back to sick sling...
Evening put antibiotic cream on lost leg spot again.
Day 4. In the morning found him laying next to water dish. I blow little on it to check if it still alive. He move front legs closer, trying to cover him self. Awesome! Still alive, that means we still have chance left. Dropped some water drops to moist paper towel sheets, replaced water with fresh Penicillin in it, put more antibiotic cream on lost leg spot. Put him face in the water. Stretched curling legs. Checked on him in few hours, he move him self away from the water dish next to his box wall. At evening same procedures.
Day 5. Looks like his legs are finally stretched but he still weak. Same procedures was done like previous days. Was checking on him every couple hours, gladly finding him on different sports in the box every time. Same procedures done before i vent to bed.
Day 6. Her looks more active today. Tried to put him face in the water, he tried to run away, but still little weak. Put cream, refill water dish.
Day 7. Looks active. Doesn't look sick anymore :) I put coco fiber back, put some moss in it so he will have some stuff to mess with, refill just fresh water in water dish but put more cream on lost leg spot. At evening found complete mess in his box. Coco fiber mixed with moss, water dish completely filled up with moss. Definitely not sick. It's already few days went, twice per day fixing his box from complete mess. No sighs of sickness :)

Please share your experiences successful or not! Share info which may help others. Thank you for reading. Have a healthy awesome pets!
 
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nicodimus22

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I'm sure that you were worried and meant well, but if you had come here and asked, we could have saved you and the sling a lot of trouble.

-Wet paper towels/ICUs only help in one situation: extreme dehydration. Otherwise, they usually make things worse.

-A tarantula dropping a leg is not a big deal. It closes off the flow of hemolymph by closing a valve at the base of the leg, and will grow the leg back with subsequent molts. They are not mammals, and do not feel pain the same way a mammal would when dropping a leg.

-I don't even know what to say about the antibiotics, other than I'm glad they didn't have any adverse effects. Tarantulas do not get bacterial infections as far as I know, but they can get mold and fungal ones (which is another reason to avoid wet paper towels.)

I'm glad that it survived, but in the future, I would ask here first before coming up with a treatment plan, if one is needed. Save yourself a whole lot of trouble.
 

EtienneN

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It was the water that revived the sling, not the antibiotics. Tarantulas are not like mammals!
 

boina

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Tarantulas do not get bacterial infections as far as I know,
That deserves at the very least a facepalm. Of course they get bacterial infections. Everything gets bacterial infections, invertebrates are no exception. Where does this nonsense come from??

And I think the idea to put penicillin in the water was actually great. @EtienneN , how do you know it was the water? The sling showed clear signs of illness. It may have been just dehydration, but we don't know that, especially since I hope that someone who buys some very expensive P. solaris slings actually knows to keep them on moist soil.

Anyway, it could very well have been an infection and there is absolutely no reason that antibiotics shouldn't work in spiders.

(One minor mistake, though: penicillin is not really a weak antibiotic. It's a basic one, but it's as strong as a lot of the more modern ones.)
 

boina

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Any "feed" stores sell it. Stores which sells supplies and hay for horses.
Really? America really needs to rethink its approach to antibiotics. This widespread use and easy access to antibiotics leads to so many resistant strains... in most of Europe you at least need to see an MD/vet to get them.
 

Ella1984

Arachnopeon
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
13
I'm sure that you were worried and meant well, but if you had come here and asked, we could have saved you and the sling a lot of trouble.

-Wet paper towels/ICUs only help in one situation: extreme dehydration. Otherwise, they usually make things worse.

-A tarantula dropping a leg is not a big deal. It closes off the flow of hemolymph by closing a valve at the base of the leg, and will grow the leg back with subsequent molts. They are not mammals, and do not feel pain the same way a mammal would when dropping a leg.

-I don't even know what to say about the antibiotics, other than I'm glad they didn't have any adverse effects. Tarantulas do not get bacterial infections as far as I know, but they can get mold and fungal ones (which is another reason to avoid wet paper towels.)

I'm glad that it survived, but in the future, I would ask here first before coming up with a treatment plan, if one is needed. Save yourself a whole lot of trouble.
In the pest i went trough thousands of forums and advises how to save slings. Never works. Everyone reccomend exactly the same and it basically just "hope it will survive in its own". I put paper towels just to put it on clean sanitary bedding instead of dirt.

It was the water that revived the sling, not the antibiotics. Tarantulas are not like mammals!
We don't know for sure how it affecting spiders. There are almost no researches about them and nobody can say for sure how mdicine affecting T's. Everybody just guessing.

Really? America really needs to rethink its approach to antibiotics. This widespread use and easy access to antibiotics leads to so many resistant strains... in most of Europe you at least need to see an MD/vet to get them.
Penicillin is very mild "old school" antibiotic. It's mostly used for farm animals by farm owners only. I call vet only if one of my 12 horses and 50 ponies was sick. All others (handred of sheep, goats and 300 rabbits was treated by Penicilin, and other stuff i was able to get my self, by me). Otherwise if even Penicillin will not be available (or any other medicine will not be sold ad the feed stores) all of them will immediately will go on the dinner plate instead of calling the vet.
Other stuff only by prescriptions.

penicillin is not really a weak antibiotic. It's a basic one, but it's as strong as a lot of the more modern ones.)[/QUOTE]
I don't know for sure. My horse vets always way telling that its weak and barely working those day. But it still always woks for me.
 
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nicodimus22

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That deserves at the very least a facepalm. Of course they get bacterial infections. Everything gets bacterial infections, invertebrates are no exception. Where does this nonsense come from??
Well, I've been here since 2013, and have never read a single post in 6+ years about a T with a bacterial infection. Not a single one in all that time. Can you show me some? I've also never seen it anywhere else on the web or in any tarantula book.
 

boina

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Penicillin is very mild "old school" antibiotic. It's mostly used for farm animals by farm owners only. Other stuff only by prescriptions.
No, penicillin is not mild. It's as strong as many of the modern ones. Just because it's a basic, classic antibiotic doesn't mean it's mild. And it's still used in humans at times, especially in many not-so-rich countries. You don't usually get it for humans in America any more because there are so many resitancies, because it's so overused. (I've worked in medicine before and work in pharmacology at the moment.)

Well, I've been here since 2013, and have never read a single post in 6+ years about a T with a bacterial infection. Not a single one in all that time. Can you show me some? I've also never seen it anywhere else on the web or in any tarantula book.
You don't see it because it doesn't get diagnosed. Bacterial infections are hard to see and all the spider owner will find is an unexplained death. How exactly do you think an Avic will die in stuffy conditions? "Stuffiness" isn't exactly a cause of death, but stuffiness helps bread bacteria and, yes, also fungi. As I said, everything gets bacterial infections. I try to find some studies, although you could do that yourself, you know.

penicillin is not really a weak antibiotic. It's a basic one, but it's as strong as a lot of the more modern ones.)
I don't know for sure. My horse vets always way telling that its weak and barely working those day. But it still always woks for me.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it's barely working - not because it's weak, but because nearly every bacterial strain has resistancies by now.
 
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nicodimus22

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In the pest i went trough thousands of forums and advises how to save slings. Never works. Everyone reccomend exactly the same and it basically just "hope it will survive in its own". I put paper towels just to put it on clean sanitary bedding instead of dirt.
New keeper arrives, asks questions, gets feedback from experienced keepers, immediately states that the advice is wrong and argues that he/she knows better.

Another day on arachnoboards. Same thing every time. Why do I even take the time to respond?
 

Ella1984

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Made picture this morning of my little mess

New keeper arrives, asks questions, gets feedback from experienced keepers, immediately states that the advice is wrong and argues that he/she knows better.

Another day on arachnoboards. Same thing every time. Why do I even take the time to respond?
You basically saying "do what they said, don't experiment, don't do anything different, don't stand out, be like everybody else, just follow the heard )))"
 
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boina

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New keeper arrives, asks questions, gets feedback from experienced keepers, immediately states that the advice is wrong and argues that he/she knows better.

Another day on arachnoboards. Same thing every time. Why do I even take the time to respond?
Because this time the "experienced" keepers are wrong. Be open to learn something new, despite all your experience.

About bacterial infections in spiders: Actually, there has been no research into pathogenic bacteria that are infecting spiders. There is, however, a lot of research into symbiontic bacteria that can infect spiders, most often Wolbachia sp., like here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31300838

There is furthermore a lot of research into the immune system of spiders, including tarantulas, trying to find new antibiotics that can be used for all the resistant bacterial strains in humans. Why would spiders have antibacterial peptides if they didn't get bacterial infections? See here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30524685
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17157805

Bacterial infections in invertebrates have been investigated, though, like in oysters of all things:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31525382

or in crabs:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31507600

in cockroaches:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31446196

or crayfish:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31392969

Are you still going to argue that spiders don't get bacterial infections because bacterial infections are invisible?

You basically saying "do what they said, don't experiment, don't do anything different, don't stand out, be like everybody else, just follow the heard )))"
No, he isn't. Most times when we see something new being tried out on these boards it goes wrong and we all could have told beforehand that it was going to go wrong because it was already known that it couldn't work. You are the first exception to this I've seen in years on these boards, so please don't argue for people to do some ridiculous experiments on their animals.
 
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Ella1984

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Because this time the "experienced" keepers are wrong. Be open to learn something new, despite all your experience.

About bacterial infections in spiders: Actually, there has been no research into pathogenic bacteria that are infecting spiders. There is, however, a lot of research into symbiontic bacteria that can infect spiders, most often Wolbachia sp., like here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31300838

There is furthermore a lot of research into the immune system of spiders, including tarantulas, trying to find new antibiotics that can be used for all the resistant bacterial strains in humans. Why would spiders have antibacterial peptides if they didn't get bacterial infections? See here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30524685
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17157805

Bacterial infections in invertebrates have been investigated, though, like in oysters of all things:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31525382

or in crabs:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31507600

in cockroaches:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31446196

or crayfish:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31392969

Are you still going to argue that spiders don't get bacterial infections because bacterial infections are invisible?
Your posts are awesome. Information you provided is great. That you for new info! I
 

chanda

Arachnoking
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Jun 27, 2010
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2,229
You don't see it because it doesn't get diagnosed. Bacterial infections are hard to see and all the spider owner will find is an unexplained death. How exactly do you think an Avic will die in stuffy conditions? "Stuffiness" isn't exactly a cause of death, but stuffiness helps bread bacteria and, yes, also fungi. As I said, everything gets bacterial infections. I try to find some studies, although you could do that yourself, you know.
This isn't exactly a study of bacterial infections in tarantulas, but this article (Tarantula Husbandry and Critical Care) https://venomtech.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tarantula-husbandry-and-critical-care.pdf does refer to bacterial and fungal infections in tarantulas - mainly in the context of the difficulty of diagnosing and treating them:

"Endoscopy is beneficial, providing magnification when examining oral discharges in tarantulas. This can aid in differentiation of a bacterial infection from panagrolamid nematodes as these nematodes can be seen easily with an endoscope due to magnification effects.

Bacterial and fungal culture and sensitivity can be performed on oral or anal discharges or from lesions. Interpretation of results must be taken with caution as some pathogens are often difficult to culture using the standard technique. Postmortem sampling is often unrewarding due to rapid gut breakdown and translocation of bacteria after death. Necropsy examination should be performed immediately after death or euthanasia.

Cytology (stained and unstained) can provide useful information for identifying bacterial, fungal and protozoal infections. Postmortem examination and histology can be used to visualise melanised inflammatory nodules, which are a typical inflammatory response by arthropods due to trauma and infection. Faecal analysis may be useful to identify protozoans and gregarines."


It also refers to bacterial infections as being sometimes related to nematodes - and (so far) incurable in those cases:

"The nematodes have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria which cause tissue necrosis. Despite various treatment options trialled in the literature, with a variety of medications such as ivermectin, fenbendazole, oxfendazole, enrofloxacin and trimethoprim sulphonamides, death has always occurred with this infection. Until the exact lifecycle of this nematode is known, it is advisable to still consider this as having zoonotic potential; human cases have occurred following bites from infected spiders, resulting in infections of deep wounds. Larger spiders such as Theraphosa blondi have the potential to bite in excess of 1cm due to the large fangs. Due to this risk, unsuccessful treatment options and the concern for spread in a collection, euthanasia of an affected spider is still recommended. The mode of transmission between spiders is unknown, but spread between infected containers, and vector transmission from Phoridae flies and mealworm beetles (Tenebrio molitor) have been speculated."
 

Ella1984

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If somebody has a story of successful recovery of a sling or adult tarantula after it already started to curl in its legs, please..please share here.
 

nicodimus22

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Are you still going to argue that spiders don't get bacterial infections because bacterial infections are invisible?
Did I ever argue that? Let's look at what I said:

Tarantulas do not get bacterial infections as far as I know, but they can get mold and fungal ones (which is another reason to avoid wet paper towels.)
Note the part in bold. While I certainly don't know everything, if I've never seen a single post about it here or anywhere else in all that time, it's fairly reasonable for me to assume that it's not a common problem in the tarantula keeping hobby.

Thank you for the links.

You basically saying "do what they said, don't experiment, don't do anything different, don't stand out, be like everybody else, just follow the heard )))"
Let me make something clear: I don't care about how I am perceived, or how you are. I don't care about anyone being different or standing out. I don't care about your feelings. I care about one thing: the well-being of the animal.

So, when I post here, I'm genuinely trying to help people with the care of their animals if I can. I am not 'tarantula god' or whatever, but I do have plenty of experience from keeping, and lots of knowledge from reading and regularly listening to the educational types like Tom Moran. All that anyone can offer is the best info he/she has at the time. The advice you would get 30 years ago is probably somewhat different than what you'd see today. (The TKG is an example of this...it still has some good info, and some of it is very outdated.)

The reason that this forum is the best place to come to for care advice is that it's a collection of keepers who can all contribute and discuss their experience and knowledge. No one keeper knows everything, but combined, we know a lot.

I'm very glad that your T has recovered. I hope it does great!
 
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tewebag

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Apr 20, 2018
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237
If somebody has a story of successful recovery of a sling or adult tarantula after it already started to curl in its legs, please..please share here.
I have had a successful recovery from that but it has nothing to do with this topic (possible bacteria), mine was just sever dehydration. I posted a small story along that in my thread of my tarantulas, it's the Aphonopelma hentzi sling, if you are interested in that.
 

Ella1984

Arachnopeon
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
13
I have had a successful recovery from that but it has nothing to do with this topic (possible bacteria), mine was just sever dehydration. I posted a small story along that in my thread of my tarantulas, it's the Aphonopelma hentzi sling, if you are interested in that.
Please attach a link here.
Thank you.
 
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