‘Undercutting the market’

[antinous]

I’m a part of a number of tarantula FB groups and there’s always a argument regarding undercutting the market of a specific species (selling a higher valued tarantula for a lower price). I believe most people who do this only do it to try and move a large number of slings fast by themselves (not wanting to wholesale). Some people get pretty riled up about this, which is expected, but whats your opinion on this?

 

[Venom1080]

people who make a significant portion of their livelihood off of tarantulas hate when private sellers pull this stuff. dont think theyd get so annoyed theyd refuse to sell to you or anything, but youre certainly not making any friends.

i think its good. it provides competition. some argue that the value of the animal is reduced to nothing and that theyre worth more than what theyre sold for. sure, but thats not how it works in the real world. when theres more of something, its worth less. i imagine these people would argue only a certain number of sacs should be produced from a captive species per year, to keep the supply manageable and prices up. thats stupid. this hobby is pay to play enough without greedy big name breeders trying to sell B albos for 50 a sling. some sellers in Europe sell spiders for fractions of what they charge in NA, yet they seem to be doing just fine. wonder why that is..

tarantulas used to be sooo much cheaper, but as the hobbies grown its attracted more and more people interested in a quick buck. people acting friendly to get in good with importers and big dealers and getting access to super rare species for cheap or even free, then screwing them over for money. it gets worse as time goes on.

This hobby has plenty of issues, but people providing competition for big dealers is NOT a problem.

 

[KezyGLA]

People who argue prices should deal with it. What ever someone sells their property for is none of anyone elses business.

 

[Theneil]

Competition is a key part of how our economy works. Prices absolutely should be undercut over and over again as more people are able to produce more slings the supply and demand should naturally decrease the price.

Now for the other side of the coin. (and i think this is what the 'big shots' get the most upset about)

While competition is all good and proper, when people CHEAT to he able to undercut prices, that is very much an issue. Unfortunately, there are a lot of expenses involved with running a legal buisness. Registering that buisness, paying taxes, absorbing all the paypal and credit card fees, complying with OSHA (and/or other safty regulations), paying foe the licence to LEGALLY import/export if that is part of the buosnes, etc. - perhapse somebody who actually owns a buisness will elaborate on all the expenses.

When somebody decides to Brown box a bunch of cheap stock from europe (Skipping purchase of propper licences and importation fees) and then sell it on facebook without registering their buisness (skipping fees) using paypal friends and family (skipping fees) and then likely not claiming it as income on their taxes, that is very much the definition of CHEATING. And that is something that everybody, not only the 'big shots' should be upset about.

Proper competition helps keep the market reasonable, but cheating is bad for everybody (except the cheater.)

 

[antinous]

Competition is a key part of how our economy works. Prices absolutely should be undercut over and over again as more people are able to produce more slings the supply and demand should naturally decrease the price.

Now for the other side of the coin. (and i think this is what the 'big shots' get the most upset about)

While competition is all good and proper, when people CHEAT to he able to undercut prices, that is very much an issue. Unfortunately, there are a lot of expenses involved with running a legal buisness. Registering that buisness, paying taxes, absorbing all the paypal and credit card fees, complying with OSHA (and/or other safty regulations), paying foe the licence to LEGALLY import/export if that is part of the buosnes, etc. - perhapse somebody who actually owns a buisness will elaborate on all the expenses.

When somebody decides to Brown box a bunch of cheap stock from europe (Skipping purchase of propper licences and importation fees) and then sell it on facebook without registering their buisness (skipping fees) using paypal friends and family (skipping fees) and then likely not claiming it as income on their taxes, that is very much the definition of CHEATING. And that is something that everybody, not only the 'big shots' should be upset about.

Proper competition helps keep the market reasonable, but cheating is bad for everybody (except the cheater.)

Sorry, I should have been more clear, but in that instance someone was selling on the 'side', meaning that they were a hobby breeder who only sells sacs once in a while or just once even. Hell, even I was bashed a few years back when I had to sell my spiders and I was selling a few X. intermedia for a 'cheap' price and I was more concerned with it going to a good home than making a quick dollar.

 

[Greasylake]

I sold my sack of huntsman for a fraction of what I could have gotten for them, because i was starting college and had my hands full adjusting to the change without having to feed dozens of baby spiders. In that case I wasn't worried about the market, I sold them at the price I valued them at, which was reduced as I had to move them fast. Whatever a vendor is able and willing to sell their product for is up to them, and competitive pricing helps the consumer.

 

[cold blood]

High prices are for dealers...for breeders moving them quickly and getting more than the paltry wholesale prices dealers offer is critical to maintain sales.

Seriously, if people knew how little dealers were paying for these ts, they wouldnt be mad about under cutting, they would be mad at that price disparity they are being forced to pay.

Breeders, if they are going to sell their stock, NEED to offer lower prices to the public as our selection doesnt usually compare. This provides a win for the breeder and a huge win for the buyer.

Greedy sellers looking to maimize profits at the consumors expense are the only ones complaining about getting too good of a deal.

When wholesale prices start to get above the laughable level, less breeders will sell, and therefore fewer will under cut the large dealers.

Lets face it, breeders are doing the lions share of the work here, they deserve more profit than wholesale prices offer. Dont get mad about breeders lower prices, take advantage of them.

edit: Important to note, not all dealers fall into this pattern, just as all breeders dont either. I am not trying to disparage larger dealers, they are important to the hobby, we cant forget that....but breeders are just as important, and i think that gets forgotten at times with a topic like this.

without greedy breeders trying to sell B albos for 50 a sling. some sellers in Europe sell sp

breeders are not usually the 'greedy" ones selling at top dollar prices. This statement is offensive to breeders.

Love the rest of your comment though.

 

[Greasylake]

Seriously, if people knew how litle dealers were paying for these ts, they wouldnt be mad about under cutting, they would be mad at that price disparity they are being forced to pay.

My slings were on the market for 5X what I got for them.

 

[Theneil]

Sorry, I should have been more clear, but in that instance someone was selling on the 'side', meaning that they were a hobby breeder who only sells sacs once in a while or just once even. Hell, even I was bashed a few years back when I had to sell my spiders and I was selling a few X. intermedia for a 'cheap' price and I was more concerned with it going to a good home than making a quick dollar.

Gotcha. Yeah, while technically thimgs like that should still be claimed on taxes, i am guilty as well, if i sell something on craigslist, i don't claim the sale on my taxes so i can understand where the seller is coming from, but at the same time, i imagine it makes it very difficult for many of the 'big shots' to move the inexpensive species, because it will cost them more in fees, taxes, housing, and care than they will he able to sell them for. The really common species like B. albopilosum that will constantly be bred by a new people who will just wants to sell them quick and cheap because it will be their first or only sac etc. will be a constant force, and despite no ONE individual being a significant issue, when you have a hobby expanding as rapidly as this one seems to be, the number of people who will breed that species and sell just the one sac, will urn the phenomenon into a significant one for the larger retailers.

On a side note: Just my opinion here, but if (when) i hatch out a sac, if i am willing to under cut the market by so much in order to move them faster, i would much rather just sell them wholesale to the 'bigshot' anyway. But that's just me.

 

[antinous]

On a side note: Just my opinion here, but if (when) i hatch out a sac, if i am willing to under cut the market by so much in order to move them faster, i would much rather just sell them wholesale to the 'bigshot' anyway. But that's just me.

In the future, I plan on breeding a number of Pamphobeteus species, if all goes as planned. I wouldn't exactly be interesting in wholesale-ing them as much, I'd want to be able to trade for species I don't have, but I'd more so want to break even with how much money I spent in the hobby (or how much I spent on breeding: male/female price, cost of sling enclosures, etc.). My main goal is to make them as available in the US hobby as they are in the EU hobby. Granted this could all change in the future, but as of now, I don't want to make a quick buck off the things I love, I want them to be more available to people and for them not to second guess if they would be able to afford such a species.

 

[MrTwister]

Free market at work.

 

[antinous]

Free market at work.

Short and to the point, I like.

 

[Theneil]

In the future, I plan on breeding a number of Pamphobeteus species, if all goes as planned. I wouldn't exactly be interesting in wholesale-ing them as much, I'd want to be able to trade for species I don't have, but I'd more so want to break even with how much money I spent in the hobby (or how much I spent on breeding: male/female price, cost of sling enclosures, etc.). My main goal is to make them as available in the US hobby as they are in the EU hobby. Granted this could all change in the future, but as of now, I don't want to make a quick buck off the things I love, I want them to be more available to people and for them not to second guess if they would be able to afford such a species.

Hahaha. That's the beauty of the whole system, everybody gets to attempt things in their own way. Personally, i would go about that same goal in exactly the opposite way. Its not exactly that i want the quick buck, its that i want the quick turn around. If my B. albo (real life breeding project in the works for me. Just waiting on a sac) has 400 slings and i could get (numbers being pulled from butt) $1 proffit per sling (excluding cost of my time) selling wholesale in a month or $4 per sling selling them myself over the next 6-8 months, i would still sell them wholesale because:
1. i am still making them more available in the hobby by increasing supply, which generally decreases cost and increases access.
2. It saves me a LOT of time that i'm not taking care of hundreds of extra slings.
3.If frees up the space i would need for my next project/batch of slings
4. it would still give me the money to get my next breeding pair of sp xyz
5. my breeding project of Sp. xyz will be several months advanced due to accessibility to the funds to buy (or trade for them) them sooner. And this lets me get Sp xyz out and available sooner.
6. Selling everything also removes risk. If there is a week long power outage in the dead of winter, i might lose EVERYTHING. simply by having less, i can minimize that loss.


Someday, i wouldn't mind setting up a 'store front' and retailing slings produced by myself (or bought wholesale etc.) but i would have to be able to quit my day job first in order to have the time to do that, so IMO the beat way that i can contribute is by producing and wholesaling to somebody with the resources to maintain several thousands of slings.

 

[Venom1080]

High prices are for dealers...for breeders moving them quickly and getting more than the paltry wholesale prices dealers offer is critical to maintain sales.

Seriously, if people knew how little dealers were paying for these ts, they wouldnt be mad about under cutting, they would be mad at that price disparity they are being forced to pay.

Breeders, if they are going to sell their stock, NEED to offer lower prices to the public as our selection doesnt usually compare. This provides a win for the breeder and a huge win for the buyer.

Greedy sellers looking to maimize profits at the consumors expense are the only ones complaining about getting too good of a deal.

When wholesale prices start to get above the laughable level, less breeders will sell, and therefore fewer will under cut the large dealers.

Lets face it, breeders are doing the lions share of the work here, they deserve more profit than wholesale prices offer. Dont get mad about breeders lower prices, take advantage of them.

edit: Important to note, not all dealers fall into this pattern, just as all breeders dont either. I am not trying to disparage larger dealers, they are important to the hobby, we cant forget that....but breeders are just as important, and i think that gets forgotten at times with a topic like this.


breeders are not usually the 'greedy" ones selling at top dollar prices. This statement is offensive to breeders.

Love the rest of your comment though.

Didn't mean private sellers with that line. I totally agree. Big fuss on Facebook over a certain dealer that brought in A moorae for 70 bucks apiece. Think they sold them for 350 each. Have to wonder where breaking even and a little more stops, and greed begins..

I find it almost depressing how the hobbies getting these days..


Pro tip: if you want to save money and get ridiculous deals, make friends with big dealers and importers. Seen people getting seladonia for free sometimes..

 

[Djv44spider]

Bigger breeders are obviously part of this hobby as are smaller breeders. IMO, smaller breeders counteract some of the greed that we talk about. The only people who are truly going to complain are people that are losing out on a lot of money. I say let the system work.

 

[Venom1080]

Bigger breeders are obviously part of this hobby as are smaller breeders. IMO, smaller breeders counteract some of the greed that we talk about. The only people who are truly going to complain are people that are losing out on a lot of money. I say let the system work.

The people who should complain are beginners who buy for way too high from dealers they're supposed to be able to trust. The ones without the connections basically.

 

[Djv44spider]

The people who should complain are beginners who buy for way too high from dealers they're supposed to be able to trust. The ones without the connections basically.

Exactly what I was trying to get at. The problem is a lot of newer people may not know how much research to put in before paying for something. And bigger entities can use that to make sales

 

[MetalMan2004]

On a side note: Just my opinion here but if (when) i hatch out a sac, if i am willing to under cut the market by so much in order to move them faster, i would much rather just sell them wholesale to the 'bigshot' anyway. But that's just me.

I thought the same thing until I saw what the dealers offered me. @Greasylake is right, they’d be making 4-500% on a very popular species.

 

[Theneil]

I thought the same thing until I saw what the dealers offered me. @Greasylake is right, they’d be making 4-500% on a very popular species.

Honestly, that's what i would have expected...

 

[MetalMan2004]

Honestly, that's what i would have expected...

Yeah, I’m not really sure what I think about it to tell you the truth. I really only could form an accurate opinion if I knew what overhead is on running an i very business (I don’t).