Tarantula egg question

Aubrey Sidwell · Aug 5, 2008

I have a rather involved question about tarantulas eggs. I opened an egg sac of H. incei, not knowing the actual date it was produced, and I am curious about something I see when I look at them now that they are out of the sac and in an incubator.

When I slowly roll the eggs I can see the nucleus and yolk move inside the chorion. If the eggs are viewed from a horizontal plane there appears to be about 10% of the uppermost part that appears to be clear. When the eggs are rolled the clear area moves with the egg and then when stopped the yolk settles and the clear spot is again visible at the top. I have heard that until development really begins the nucleus/yolk always settle the same inside the chorion until the pre-post embryo takes form to prepare for eclosion.

I cannot find any photos taken of this stage of the eggs and showing exactly what I am seeing and want to understand more about what is going on inside. First is this normal to see during the early stages of development and is it a sign one way or the other about whether or not the eggs are fertile?

Does anyone have a link to a site, photos, or video of real eggs, time lapsed or not, so I can see the process and also be able to compare it to what I am witnessing in the incubator?

Please no guessing as to whats going on. I hope to find someone truly educated in the tarantula biology with a special interest in egg stages and development.

Talkenlate04 · Aug 5, 2008

Give me some time and I can post pictures of the whole process day by day.

Talkenlate04 · Aug 5, 2008

From day 12 on. Day 11 is when I first saw the stem.

Day 12

Day 13

Day 14

Day 15

Day 16

Day 17

Day 18

woowe · Aug 5, 2008

Those might be the coolest pics i've ever seen...

Thank you

Talkenlate04 · Aug 5, 2008

First is this normal to see during the early stages of development and is it a sign one way or the other about whether or not the eggs are fertile?

It is normal to see this. I see it in just about every species I have bred between the 11-14 day mark. But I can tell if they are fertile as early as 6-8 days. Yes if you don't see it in some eggs odds are those are infertile eggs. Some can show growth slightly later then the majority of the others, but if you don't see that growth start withing a few days of the mass majority then they most certainly are the infertile ones.
I intend to document this growth some more in the future. It is painstaking delicate work. I think I can get better pictures in the future if I can devise a better way to pass light through the egg for illumination.

Aubrey Sidwell · Aug 5, 2008

Talkenlate04 said:
It is normal to see this. I see it in just about every species I have bred between the 11-14 day mark. But I can tell if they are fertile as early as 6-8 days. Yes if you don't see it in some eggs odds are those are infertile eggs. Some can show growth slightly later then the majority of the others, but if you don't see that growth start withing a few days of the mass majority then they most certainly are the infertile ones.
I intend to document this growth some more in the future. It is painstaking delicate work. I think I can get better pictures in the future if I can devise a better way to pass light through the egg for illumination.

I have seen these photos before. They are taken later in the development stage than what I am seeking. It is obvious in the photos that you can see the embryo forming. I am looking for clues as to the viability of the egg earlier than this and also, maybe it's hard to explain, your photos do not address what I can easily see with the naked eye pertaining to the clear portion at the top of the egg, under the chorion, which maybe happens prior to the embryo taking form. I am trying to ascertain the difference as early as possible to see what eggs will be viable with the data to back up the answer. So your photos are good but you lack the knowledge of a trained biologist that has expertise in this field. Thats ok though Ryan, I knew you wouldn't have missed the chance to respond

aluras · Aug 5, 2008

wow, those are the best pics iv seen in a long time:drool: :drool:

Tuwin · Aug 6, 2008

Incredible Pictures

Talkenlate04 · Aug 6, 2008

I am looking for clues as to the viability of the egg earlier than this and also

You won't find very many other visual clues. I know what you are trying describe. If you roll the eggs the 2/3+ of the darker yellow settles to the bottom every time with a fairly clear part of the egg remaining at the top. But both fertile and infertile eggs do that so it is not a clue to single out fertile and infertile eggs. Once the stem forms and the leg nubs start to form that rotation and settling you see won't happen anymore and you can see that from my later pictures.
You don't see visual evidence of growth that proves they are fertile any earlier then when that stem forms. But that is in my non educated uninformed visual observations on quite a few egg sacs.

So your photos are good but you lack the knowledge of a trained biologist that has expertise in this field.

Me not knowing the biological and scientific terms for what we are seeing does not take away from the factual observations I am seeing and offering.

First is this normal to see during the early stages of development and is it a sign one way or the other about whether or not the eggs are fertile?

This was pretty much your only solid two questions. And I answered them in post #5 before you responded. Maybe not in the biological terms you wanted to hear, but I still answered it based on what I see.

Talkenlate04 · Aug 6, 2008

I will also mention that sometimes with infertile eggs the egg looks like a milky cloudy ball of yellow cells and there is no clear part present like you see now. Additionally there is no rotation and settling taking place ether.

That however does not happen with all infertile eggs. Some infertile eggs look exactly like the other fertile eggs that have the clear and yellow separation but are infertile.

But if you see that cloudiness they are infertile every time.
(once again only in my uneducated opinion of my visual observations.)

dannax · Aug 6, 2008

I never checked back on those pictures past the 2nd day! Those are amazing!

barabootom · Aug 6, 2008

Very nice photos Ryan, thanks for posting them.

Talkenlate04 · Aug 6, 2008

The original poster thinks no one else is giving him answers to his question because I posted pictures on his thread and distracted everyone from reading his questions.
So everyone who knows about the growth of an egg under 8 days please add your knowledge! I'd love to read about more observations and thoughts about this topic and I am sure the OP would too!

Aubrey Sidwell said:
Ryan,
I don't mind that you post a bazillion replies all day long because your bored, just do me a favor and don't respond to mine. Have you ever heard of the term "thread crapping"? I haven't had a single response to my thread because people are besides themselves looking at your photo's instead of answering my questions. I know you posted the pics in another thread so you could have just provided a link
Aubrey

pato_chacoana · Aug 6, 2008

Good pics and observation, well done :clap:

pato.

Nerri1029 · Aug 7, 2008

This is my opinion:

The OP's question is one of a very technical nature. ( or is it a technicality of nature?)

- To ask it on a Hobby Forum is optimistic though many of us have science backgrounds.

- to get pics like we did on a hobby forum is fantastic,
and it's true that what was offered in response to your post may not answer your question directly,

this thread and its contents is/are great for the Hobby.

I've seen my share of college texts in various science disciplines and these pics would easily be accepted.

If the answers aren't here, try a "real" scientist.. or better yet... find them for yourself and then you will really know the reasons.

I've read Rainer Foelix and Fred Punzo but I don't remember as detailed an explanation about egg development. Maybe I'll go back and see.

jesters22 · Aug 9, 2008

awsome pictures.. especialy the 2nd pic in day 18.

Talkenlate04 · Aug 9, 2008

Hey now.......watch the F bombs.

Drachenjager · Aug 10, 2008

The term arrogant pops to mind . Personally, I think that members of this board(in general) know more about theraphosids than most "real scientists" . I also seriously doubt that you get to be a "real" scientist for searching for the truth, but by keeping the status quo.
To be quite honest , with a few exceptions, i think biologists don't give a rats butt about Tarantulas. I also don't think they care what the truth is ... but thats a topic for another discussion lol
For the OP, get a life. If you want PhD material ask a PhD not a hobby board.
Also, get over yourself.

Aubrey Sidwell · Aug 10, 2008

Nerri,
At least you got the point of it being a technical question. A bunch of pictures really has no significant value to me. It was a reasonable request knowing there are people with educated backgrounds to be members of these boards and I based my question specifically seeking opinions from those individuals. I was being conservative but at the same time I made clear in my original post that I was looking for responses from people with educational backgrounds only. A long shot, sure, but it was worth a try as there are no stupid questions.

Nerri1029 said:
This is my opinion:

The OP's question is one of a very technical nature. ( or is it a technicality of nature?)

- To ask it on a Hobby Forum is optimistic though many of us have science backgrounds.

- to get pics like we did on a hobby forum is fantastic,
and it's true that what was offered in response to your post may not answer your question directly,

this thread and its contents is/are great for the Hobby.

I've seen my share of college texts in various science disciplines and these pics would easily be accepted.

If the answers aren't here, try a "real" scientist.. or better yet... find them for yourself and then you will really know the reasons.

I've read Rainer Foelix and Fred Punzo but I don't remember as detailed an explanation about egg development. Maybe I'll go back and see.

arachyd · Aug 10, 2008

Scientists and biologists don't necessarily have expertise with Ts. I'd rather have 1 person with the vast amount of practical egg sac experience Ryan has advising me than any 10 biologists who may have studied spiders in college. He seems to have answered the questions adequately-JMO. Those pictures are wonderful, by the way.

Tarantula egg question

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