Brown Boxing Your Tarantula - Supply and Demand - and getting things illegal

This topic can start here since its in other threads it don't really belong!

So we all know we should not do it and in the long run it hurts our hobby so feel free to argue away!

Here I will start
Brown boxing hurts all of us. It threatens our hobby as a whole, ruins markets which in turn discourages people from breeding and such. I know I hate it when I see a great species loose all its value cause someone decided to illegal ship that animal too themself and then sell it for nothing in the name of helping the hobby. OK blast away at me

agree

No blasting required. Ken, we are in 100% agreement. Brown-boxing smugglers are hurting our hobby. Hobbyists should not support them. Web site owners and moderators question, investigate and if you need to, delete their posts.

Newbie here. Can you briefly explain Brown Boxing?

brown boxing.

CAK said:

Newbie here. Can you briefly explain Brown Boxing?

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Just means to smuggle animals into the country usually by having them mailed to yourself.

I'm glad this thread is being started. I've personally gotten into a couple 'debates' about these illegal importations. It seems that brown boxing occurs under a few different scenarios.

Some people are just naive about the laws. They see people selling something they want offering worldwide shipping, and think it's all good. That's a simple fix. Ban people that support brown boxing and do more to educate others on its legality.

A few just don't care that it's illegal. Let's face it, at this point even if you are caught, which the chances of happening are very low, the consequences are likely just a slap on the wrist.

And then there are some that believe that brown boxing is legal if the 'import' is not for commercial purposes and if the shipment contains 7 specimens or less (or something equally arbitrary). That, to me, is the most infruriating of all. I've seen nothing to support this point of view, and I've read the official regulations pretty thoroughly. I link to the official regulations, but of course, people are going to remain hard-headed about it.

The future of the hobby depends on people like Ken and other importers in order to bring in new stock/species. Brown boxing can only go so far until it will bring about heavy regulations and lead to a severe backlash against the hobby.

Getting caught

From what I heard its actually a 1/6th chance of getting caught but who knows as that was hear say. As to punishment if they choose they have pretty good punishments the first time. Maybe if they actually went through with maximum fines and or other forms it would minimize brown boxing.


Oh and I would like to point out that we do all have species that came from stuff brown boxed at sometime. It is inevitable. Some things would just never make it to our hobby otherwise. Thats where this subject is kind of sticky to me

consequences

>the consequences are likely just a slap on the wrist.

No, no. You can have the animals confiscated (therefore losing your money into them), be given thousands of dollars in fines and probation for 1 to 5 years on a first offense.

No it is no slap on the wrist. 2 yrs. ago, a guy in AZ got caught getting tarantulas from Brazil in the mail. 25K in USFWS fines, 5 yrs. probation, 25K in attorney fees. 26 USFWS agents from 3 states kicked in his door and took his animals and computer.

IF you are brown-box smuggling out there, do you understand the consequences are NOT minor?

It hurts our hobby. Do NOT support these individuals doing this on the internet.

P.S.

Shhhhh....I notice that every since Ken and I started making some noise about this problem in our hobby, the *known* box boxing smugglers are staying very quiet the last few days. No posts. No ads......Hmmm....laying low

I agree

Some do get a slap but some do get maximum penilties....probably not worth the risk really.

oh

KenTheBugGuy said:

Oh and I would like to point out that we do all have species that came from stuff brown boxed at sometime. It is inevitable. Some things would just never make it to our hobby otherwise. Thats where this subject is kind of sticky to me

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Oh but to quote myself I don't know why people are bringing in species that are already here except to just make a quick buck.

xenesthis said:

>the consequences are likely just a slap on the wrist.

No, no. You can have the animals confiscated (therefore losing your money into them), be given thousands of dollars in fines and probation for 1 to 5 years on a first offense.

No it is no slap on the wrist. 2 yrs. ago, a guy in AZ got caught getting tarantulas from Brazil in the mail. 25K in USFWS fines, 5 yrs. probation, 25K in attorney fees. 26 USFWS agents from 3 states kicked in his door and took his animals and computer.

IF you are brown-box smuggling out there, do you understand the consequences are NOT minor?

It hurts our hobby. Do NOT support these individuals doing this on the internet.

P.S.

Shhhhh....I notice that every since Ken and I started making some noise about this problem in our hobby, the *known* box boxing smugglers are staying very quiet the last few days. No posts. No ads......Hmmm....laying low

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Wow, I'm aware of brown boxing practices in other areas (prescription medicines, etc) and while they can punish rather heavily they confiscate and send a form letter. Incidences like this should be publicized more. I've read too many positive reviews written by US users for users from Asia and Europe. The darker side of brown boxing should be shown a light on as well.

No Arguement From Me

I have Nothing but, the Highest Respect and Appreciation, 4 ALL you guys

that CLEARLY support & Help strengthen OUR Hobby :worship:

Thank You Jayefbe as well Now let's go BBQ @ Ken's - Jason

Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,

How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
How about charguing a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?

We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others people WC blondi.

one

Fran said:

Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,

How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
How about charguing a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?

We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others people WC blondi.

Click to expand...

One point made in that other thread I do agree with is that we get a ton of males. I am sitting on about 15 males right now that I can not sell. It takes money for me to keep taking care of them and I had to make more on the others to help pay for this. Now if I did not have the overhead I did I would totally sell them cheaper. If I get 2 males and a female. I sell the female for 150 the bigger male for 100 and the smaller male for 60 it all evenened out to a normal mark up. Also if I loose one of those 3 in shipping or just something else cause they are wild caught well I just lost money instead of making money.

I am also pulling my quote from there just to save on typing
Anyways in defence you say you are making 4 times the cost that might be true but not 4 times in profit. I am speaking truthfully when I say I have not made a dime on this business to date. That is why I work a full time job still, granted I have a ton of tarantulas. So someone marking something up 4 times does not mean they are making that much money. The people that sell blondi for double mark up or less usually don't stay in business too long or are running shops where they don't care about the animals and want to pull in mass amounts and sell them as fast as possible so they don't have to feed them. Part of the cost is getting them healthy, reships, shipping losses(I know I pay part of shipping), electricity, storage, food, water(I use bottled), ect ect.

I don't think anyone in this hobby is makeing more than a decent living if even that so why woudl you think that anyone is exploiting?

Fran said:

Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,

How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
How about charguin a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?

We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others peoples blondi.

Click to expand...

+1 on what seems like overpricing. Brown boxing is illegal but most of us run a red light every now and then. Lets not throw stones if we live in a glass house.

Brown boxers also cut into legal importers profit, i always see that fact being tip toed around by the LEGAL importers.

Bottom line is that to all importers its not all about following the law its being pissed off for their profits being cut down.

A brachypelma sling that cost a 50 cents a piece then add the import costs it then cost about a dollar a piece, then that dollar brachy is sold for 10-15.00 that will only cause more supply and demand for the brown boxer.

c

Im all about the laws, well to certain degrees, i spent three years of my life in hell protecting those laws, this country and its people.

Cbarr said:

+1, Brown boxing is illegal but most of us run a red light every now and then lets not throw stones if we live in a glass house.

Brown boxers also cut into legal importers profit, i always see that fact being tip toed around by the LEGAL importers.

Bottom line is that to all importers its not all about following the law its being pissed off for their profits being cut down.

Like fran said a brachypelma sling that cost a 50 cents a piece then add the import costs it then cost about a dollar a piece, then that dollar brachy is sold for 10-15.00 that will only cause more supply and demand for the brown boxer.

c

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I am not tip toeing around that I stated that practically in the start of this thread....I hate it when I see someone brown box something and drop the price on that species....it hurts my bottom line, all the wholesalers bottome lines, all the breeders bottom lines and discourages all of us from even selling tarantulas if brown boxers will bring them in anyways.

fran et al,

it is really hard to make money being a full time bug seller without just going out and pillaging local areas

i did a really rough guesstimate of costs plus the time and effort involved versus how much product a full time seller would need to move... it was somewhat grim


ppl like Ken deserve a huge amount of credit... he is essentially risking his life (or at least livelihood) for the sake of the hobby.


and i hate to say it... but he isn't exactly going to be living in 20,000 square foot mansions from doing it :/ his karma mansion should be pretty amazing, though!


p.s. sorry if i am crossing any lines here, Ken... but i think there are some ppl who are under the impression you give away Ferraris for xmas presents =P

oh

Cbarr said:

+1, Brown boxing is illegal but most of us run a red light every now and then lets not throw stones if we live in a glass house.

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And in no way am I perfect or an angel....you are right. Does not stop debating right and wrong though. If you brown box are you a worse person than me ....no was not implying that.

Fran said:

Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,

How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
How about charguing a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?

We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others people WC blondi.

Click to expand...

If all you're doing is quoting the markup, you are being incredibly mislead, Fran. 4 x markup is pretty high, but unlike most consumer goods (where the markup at the store is between 40-200%) the overhead (import permits, shipping, care) are vastly higher. If I had to hazard a guess, bigger importers are spending a very significant percentage, if not the majority, on overhead rather than the actual price of the animals. The markup is that high because that is what is required to stay in business. That is why everyone else sells them for the same price. It's standard market equilibrium.

Nobody is in this hobby because they are greedy. Your statement is probably the most ridiculous accusation yet.

Cbarr said:

+1, Brown boxing is illegal but most of us run a red light every now and then lets not throw stones if we live in a glass house.

Brown boxers also cut into legal importers profit, i always see that fact being tip toed around by the LEGAL importers.

Bottom line is that to all importers its not all about following the law its being pissed off for their profits being cut down.

A brachypelma sling that cost a 50 cents a piece then add the import costs it then cost about a dollar a piece, then that dollar brachy is sold for 10-15.00 that will only cause more supply and demand for the brown boxer.

c

Im all about the laws, well to certain degrees, i spent three years of my life in hell protecting those laws, this country and its people.

Click to expand...

So legal importers should be hurt for doing things the legal and right way? This whole situation is messed up in that it places incentives (cheaper cost) on supporting illegal smuggling. Really, brown boxing may offer the short-term reward of cheaper costs, but in the end it's doing nothing but driving the legal importers and breeders out and placing a bad stigma on the hobby. When/if this hobby becomes as popular as the reptile hobby is now, who's going to oppose regulating/banning the keeping of arachnids when the hobbyists have already been skirting the law to such an excessive degree?

In this hobby, brown boxing isn't cutting into legal importers' profits so much as it is cutting into their ability to remain in business.

Fran said:

Since the post was started about the pricing matter that we talked about in the other thread,

How about being less greedy and acommodate a bit the prices?
How about charguing a bit less for some species so people will be more gladly to stay within the law and not find the bugs outisde of it?

We all know that selling a blondi for 150 doesn not mean you are making 4 times profit. But we all know is excesive and we all know that your blondis wild caught, are no better than others people WC blondi.

Click to expand...

Fran that seems kinda harsh man..
I don't think you understand how this buisness really works..
I deal wholesale to dealers and breeders often and if you knew the price some of the stuff you see with these high price tags was originally bought for I think you would be quite surprised hehe!
People often make much more than 4x profit when selling there stock.
Here's an example
I sell a 100 P.irminia to a dealer at 2 dollars each..He then resells them at 30 dollars each..
The same is done with more expensive spiders.
Dealer pays 40 dollars each for M.balfouri..resells for 250 dollars hehe
This happens all the time and its not isolated to the spider hobby its just plain simple supply and demand.
-Chris