Reports of Hyrbrids..

SpaceHawk · Sep 28, 2007

Something that has been coming up in the python community a lot lately is the making of hybrids. I would rather have pure specie's for the most part, but if something cool pop's out (more colorful, patterned..etc) I am not going to turn my nose up at it.

With scorpions though, is it even possible to cross similar specie's to each other? Putting an Australis with a more red colored Crassicauda for example.
I have never tried this, and I doubt I will, but it makes me wonder if anyone else has attempted it or ever heard about it before.

Cheers,
Chris

Xaranx · Sep 28, 2007

Snake and reptile "hybrids" are usually just breeding same species with different colors in order to get the colors you want. Actually breeding entirely different species is another matter entirely, and likely isn't very possible. One will get eaten or the offspring will be infertile and die quickly.

arachnonick2 · Sep 28, 2007

Xaranx I believe SpaceHawk was referring to hybrids not morphs of pythons. Morphs have different genetic phenotypes and are usually from the same species (think of cornsnakes for example). While hybrids are always considered to be a cross between two species to give rise to something totally different ( Donkey x Horse = Mule ). It would however be interesting to try and breed two closely related species of scorpion. I don't know how much each scorpion differs to one another in terms of chromosomes etc. I think some one should find out.

SpaceHawk · Sep 28, 2007

Xaranx said:
Snake and reptile "hybrids" are usually just breeding same species with different colors in order to get the colors you want. Actually breeding entirely different species is another matter entirely, and likely isn't very possible. One will get eaten or the offspring will be infertile and die quickly.

You do need to do a little research here. There are many genuine hyrbids in the reptile world. Corns to King's, Milk's to corns or kings, Burmese pythons to retics, rock's to retic's and the new capret to ball python hybrid. I think a lot of these mixes were just experiments that became a passing fad, but some of the hybrids actually became popular and sell out from breeders every year. Not all hybrids are steril either, though you are right in that some are.

In crossing closer related specie's like what I mentioned with Australis and more red colored Crassicauda, I think it could actually work, but who knows.

Aztek · Sep 28, 2007

Probably possible...

Although most would just eat each other.

Canth · Sep 28, 2007

Someone did a P. transvaalicus and P. villosus and some of the offspring are floating around.

Crono · Sep 28, 2007

Canth said:
Someone did a P. transvaalicus and P. villosus and some of the offspring are floating around.

Sorry man, I don't think they were hybrids in the end
http://venomlist.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13462

Mr. Mordax · Sep 29, 2007

I know of and have seen first-hand the offspring of an attempt at tarantula hybridization (same genus, different species). It should be possible with scorpions, in theory, but a lot of the hardcore-types may get upset at something "impure" mixing up the captive breeding stock in the event that hybrids find themselves in the hands of someone who doesn't know (or possibly care) exactly what they're dealing with.

Vfox · Sep 29, 2007

IHeartMantids said:
I know of and have seen first-hand the offspring of an attempt at tarantula hybridization (same genus, different species). It should be possible with scorpions, in theory, but a lot of the hardcore-types may get upset at something "impure" mixing up the captive breeding stock in the event that hybrids find themselves in the hands of someone who doesn't know (or possibly care) exactly what they're dealing with.

There are also the problems of toxicity with venom, how defensive/aggresive is it, if it can breed, its temperment, the way it will live with temp/humidity, and many other problems. Who is to say breeding a Leurius quinquestriatus with some other Leurius wouldn't create a scorpion with venom twice as potent, or even weaker than a P. imp's. I personally would like to see some different species bred together, but the results may not be something we would want. Now wether it can be done or not is the big question I suppose.

SpaceHawk · Sep 29, 2007

Vfox said:
There are also the problems of toxicity with venom, how defensive/aggresive is it, if it can breed, its temperment, the way it will live with temp/humidity, and many other problems. Who is to say breeding a Leurius quinquestriatus with some other Leurius wouldn't create a scorpion with venom twice as potent, or even weaker than a P. imp's. I personally would like to see some different species bred together, but the results may not be something we would want. Now wether it can be done or not is the big question I suppose.

Who is to say we don't want a scorpion twice as toxic as a L.Q.? That would be crazy, but cool all the same. The way it deals with temp's or humidity will depend on the specie's crossed. They don't become a whole new species, they are a mix of the two. Usually hybrids get a little hybrid vigor, which is proven to make gene's more resistant. It doesn't matter how aggressive they turn out though, nobody in their right mind is cuddling their scorp's anyway, so listing this as a problem in mixing specie's only reflects that maybe you should stick to Emp's if you plan on only keeping non-aggressive scorps...

Just my two cents...

sick4x4 · Sep 29, 2007

i'd want a 2xLQ lol..but really why???? as many purest that are out there, im sure there are as many mad scientists as well....this is a topic discussed in detail many times before and i dont really see it getting very scientific...

whos to say people wouldn't want bright colors or venom levels that were off the chart but i guess why would we??? because we could or to further the species??? we are already having a hard time preserving what we already have and to pollute what viable taxonomy we currently have with X's would be a travesty not a breakthrough........

i too have seen hybrids but they are not my cup of tea..so i wasn't as enthused as some might be but who am i to judge lol......lets 1st identify correctly what we have and then ponder the what ifs......

SpaceHawk · Sep 29, 2007

I am not one for hybrids either, especially in species that we are already having a hard time in keeping or finding "pure" animals in. We don't have that problem with inverts the way we do with herps though. This is a big deal right now with carpet pythons, so I do know what you are saying here, but with inverts I can't see the making of X's jeopordizing the pure gene pool at all. It wouldn't ever become a big thing, and with all the importation of fresh pure scorps coming in every month hybrizing a pair of Androc's or whatever wouldn't do anything bad to the market.

If we could get cooler colors, patterns or a super L.Q. more potent then 100 sea snakes and 500 king cobras put together, then I think we'd all be on to something...haha.

I am not hyrbid bashing/praising or putting down anyone willing to attempt this, but I would actually like to see it be done, eventually.

Cheers,
Chris

Vfox · Sep 29, 2007

SpaceHawk said:
It doesn't matter how aggressive they turn out though, nobody in their right mind is cuddling their scorp's anyway, so listing this as a problem in mixing specie's only reflects that maybe you should stick to Emp's if you plan on only keeping non-aggressive scorps...

Just my two cents...

I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Whatever fool wants to handle an Lq, more power too them, but creating a hybrid that is literally aggressive and not just defensive is a whole other matter. If you are in the tank for whatever reason, you do not want the scorpion running up to you attempting to tag you, you want it to be afraid and hide, a natural reaction to something several hundred times its size. If you hybrid a truly aggressive scorpion, you better damn well know it, and relate this to anyone who would purchase offspring. It would not only be foolish not to make note of its disposition, but endangering others because you simply don't think it's important is just reckless.

SpaceHawk · Sep 29, 2007

Vfox said:
I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Whatever fool wants to handle an Lq, more power too them, but creating a hybrid that is literally aggressive and not just defensive is a whole other matter. If you are in the tank for whatever reason, you do not want the scorpion running up to you attempting to tag you, you want it to be afraid and hide, a natural reaction to something several hundred times its size. If you hybrid a truly aggressive scorpion, you better damn well know it, and relate this to anyone who would purchase offspring. It would not only be foolish not to make note of its disposition, but endangering others because you simply don't think it's important is just reckless.

You need to read the enitre thread VFox, this is ridiculous. First off, I was responding to your comment that was simply stating if making hybrids could lead to making a more aggressive scorpion that it shouldn't be considered.

Second, NOBODY does handle a hot scorp ever, which is why I made the comment about "who cares if they are more aggressive" because I have 12 inch tongs which I take all my scorps out of their cages with prior to any
cleaning or water changes whatsoever, so why would it matter if it did run out of it's hide and started flicking the air with it's stinger at you? Practice safe handling, period! If it is more aggressive, of course you would say this is an extremely aggressive animal, you wouldn't let them figure it out all on their own so that they ended up getting tagged. I never said "hide" this fact from them, I just said it shouldn't be a consideration in "not" crossing a specie's to another specie's.

SpaceHawk · Sep 29, 2007

Looks like I need a dose of my own medicine...it wasn't you (Vfox) who made the reptile hybrid comment.

Sorry about that, I corrected the previous post.

Vfox · Sep 29, 2007

SpaceHawk said:
Second, NOBODY does handle a hot scorp ever, which is why I made the comment about "who cares if they are more aggressive" because I have 12 inch tongs which I take all my scorps out of their cages with prior to any cleaning or water changes whatsoever, so why would it matter if it did run out of it's hide and started flicking the air with it's stinger at you? Practice safe handling, period! If it is more aggressive, of course you would say this is an extremely aggressive animal, you wouldn't let them figure it out all on their own so that they ended up getting tagged. I never said "hide" this fact from them, I just said it shouldn't be a consideration in "not" crossing a specie's to another specie's.

Please, before you post to this thread, re-read the entire thread so that you can actually reply with something that contribute's to it. So far you have just been making bold statements that either don't make sense (your reptile hybrid comment) or you saying I wouldn't tell someone how aggressive a scorp is....when I never even said or led anyone to think this in my posting's.

Woah there tiger, calm them guns. You made it sound as if you don't care how aggressive something is, which implies it doesn't matter. Maybe you do care, sorry if I misinterpreted your comments. Now, as for a bold statement, I stick by it, regardless if it pertains to you, or anyone, the pet trade's just as guilty for lack of proper Id's, but know what you have, know it's temperament, and what it can do to a healthy adult. If the seller doesn't, they are foolishly endangering themselves and the buyers. Now, bs aside, lets return to a civil conversation eh? (aye, edited as well)

SpaceHawk · Sep 29, 2007

Vfox said:
Woah there tiger, calm them guns. You made it sound as if you don't care how aggressive something is, which implies it doesn't matter. Maybe you do care, sorry if I misinterpreted your comments. Now, as for a bold statement, I stick by it, regardless if it pertains to you, or anyone, the pet trade's just as guilty for lack of proper Id's, but know what you have, know it's temperament, and what it can do to a healthy adult. If the seller doesn't, they are foolishly endangering themselves and the buyers. Now, bs aside, lets return to a civil conversation eh? (aye, edited as well)

No worries here, sorry to jump to the defense. It's hard to understand how people mean their posting's to sound because you never know.

You are very right about what is stated above though, breeders, sellers, importers (etc) all need to have positive i.d's on everything as well as temperments and how dangerous the animal could be.

Now....back to hybrids.....I think I may try it next spring with my hold backs from this year...who knows though.

Cheers,
Chris

Brian S · Sep 30, 2007

You all better just stick with breeding the same species. It can be difficult enough to breed alot of these species to their own kind. You all wanting to create hybrids could possibly screw up the gene pools that some of us have been working hard to get established in the hobby, that is if you were successful at doing this in the first place. Bottom line, if you have no experience breeding scorps, why not just breed the pure species? That alone will keep you busy, believe me.

SpaceHawk · Sep 30, 2007

Brian S said:
You all better just stick with breeding the same species. It can be difficult enough to breed alot of these species to their own kind. You all wanting to create hybrids could possibly screw up the gene pools that some of us have been working hard to get established in the hobby, that is if you were successful at doing this in the first place. Bottom line, if you have no experience breeding scorps, why not just breed the pure species? That alone will keep you busy, believe me.

Hey Brian,

I still can't see one attempt or even a dozen attempts of making x's screwing up the gene pool in the US. And you can't say "You all" because nobody on this thread said they even wanted to try this, except maybe me, and I very much doubt I even want to try it (I like my breeder animals alive)...I was just throwing it out there that it is a possibility because I do produce closely related species every year and very well could attempt it. Right now I have 170 pure baby A. Australis that are 2nd and 3rd instars, how many do you think are in the states right now as we speak? How many come in gravid already? I bet there are ton's and ton's of pure Australis here.
Nothing is going to change all the work you have put in to establish A. Australis in the U.S.

If we were talking about rare, endangered or hard to import species I'd shoot the idea down with you, but we're not.

I'll say it again though, I am not for making hybrids nor against it, but I find it interesting nonetheless. You hear about crosses all over the place with other hobbies but not with inverts, so I am curious. I am not one to say no to something just because it raise's eyebrows, but I do see why you are saying what you say Brian.

Cheers,
Chris

Vfox · Sep 30, 2007

Just ignoring scorpions for a moment here, has this ever been done successfully with any invert species, say something really easy to breed like roaches or crickets? I would suggest that before venturing into something that is harder to breed, such as scorpions, we attempt it on something easy to breed, and breed out multiple generations of them. You could get some really interesting looking critters, and potentially create a better feeder animal that way as well.

Right now I'm not attempting to hybridize anything, but I am attempting to breed bigger, better crickets as a food source, starting with the captive breeding of camel crickets. I am interested in better feeder animals, so this is something I'd be willing to try. But I'm curious if anyone else has already?

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