dyskinetic syndrome

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thread split from the thread "Pokie Seizures/Vibrating? (don't think it's pesticide)" >>click here <<



Hi all,

in the past month several T keepers here in Germany have reported of problems like on the videos below and lost specimens with such symptoms.

http://gody.member.dearge.de/videos/zitter.mpg

http://www.vogelspinnen-stammtisch-hannover.de/RMOV0759.AVI

http://www.vogelspinnen-stammtisch-hannover.de/spinne.mpg

http://www.vogelspinnen-stammtisch-hannover.de/RMOV0791.AVI

http://www.vogelspinnen-stammtisch-hannover.de/blondi1.mpg


Has anybody seen such symptoms too? Does anybody know what it is or might be?

Originally posted by DR zuum

No martin what i saw wasnt like that,what was the result of autopsies on the bodies?was anything found?

Click to expand...

At the moment a friend of mine is collecting any specimen with such symptoms he can put is hands on, dead or alive, because he wants to study the problem. But to my knowledge no results yet and maybe there are different disease with similar symptoms.


One has reported, that almost only his ground dwellers show these symptoms but also some of his Avis and Poecies.


Another one I know who has lost a lot of specimens has sent dead spiders and crickets to a institute (www.EXOMED.de) for examination. A rough summary of the results (was not easy to translate, especially the specialized terms):
Histology: a highgrade inflamed bowel with heavy "Proliferation" of inflame-cells, a starting necrosis. Almost no content in the bowel! In a histologic cut lots of big chopsticklike bacteria in the wall of the bowel. Sporadic "Microsporidien".

No sign for pesticide effect!

summary :
Besids a highgrade inflamed bowel with bacterial colonization no sign for the reason of death!
The crickets had mass of Microsporidien in the bowel, besides taht in the bowel and organs "intrazytoplasmatische Einschlüsse", virus suspicion!


55 of about 100 tarantulas who have been fed by these crickets are infected. Interestingly, different specimens showed a different course of this disease. Some showed shivers since a longer time, but could still catch prey (e.g. A. geniculata). Others (e.g. Avicularia spp.,Psalmopoeus spp.) died within a night without showing any signs of this disease.
Lesser problems with Brachypelma spp. as with e. g. Haplopelma or Aviculariinae spp.. Some specimens died within some days, other are still living. Some specimens seems to have recovered slightly.
In the final stage the movements of the spiders are totally out of control, they lose their balance and drop on the their back.



Anybody outsite Germany/Europe seen such symptoms too? Any ideas what migh be the problems?

all the best,
Martin

Boy that is sad I hope someone figures out what it is. Could it be a non pesticide chemical poisening transfered through the crickets. It really seems like a neurological type agent is at work. Boy I wish I was a smarter guy and had some real answers. I hate to see anything suffer like that.

Martin i emailed you what i have on something similar i dealt with,if not the same thing.

Martin,

I have a colleague here who told me once he lost a great part of his collection... he claimed that he fed his animals with a "bad" batch of crickets...

At the time when he told me the story I just said that I was pretty sorry... but this sounds a little more scary now... I will contact him to try to get any info as if he witnessed any particular symptoms, I do remember that the death occured rather fast...

I assume that it is safer to put any specimens in quarantine but (I guess it is really too early to tell) do you have any evidence that this could be transmitted somehow from spiders to spiders in close by enclosures or for the moment the theory of the food preys carrying the possible pathogenic agent is the only plausible one?

I received some Pamphobeteus spp. a month ago or so from Germany and some of them were "shaking"... I was told to put them in quarantine and was briefed on the situation you pointed in this thread... so far, I have not lost one single specimen and the ones that have molted are doing great now and not "shaking" anymore... at the time I assumed they just got cold in transport... looking at your videos, they did not exactly exhebit the same "shivering"...

Please keep us informed on the recovery status of the "infected" specimens that are still alive... or any new details concerning this issue...

Thank you for sharing this

Martin

I have had 4 spiders that suffered a similar fate, one of whose deaths I attributed to handling after smoking without washing my hands (which may still have been the case). One was a mature female P. antinous, 2 were mature female E. constrictus and one was a mature female H. gigas. The antinous' convulsions were more rapid and pronounced, the other three slowly lost all motor control, finally climaxing in, as noted above, an inability to right themselves.

EDIT: I wonder what the method of transmission to the crickets is? Recently I had a batch of crickets that suffered large fatalities and became the target of a bunch of little flies who laid eggs everywhere in my cricket tank. I shook out enough crickets to feed the spider and then tossed everything else in the trash before blasting the tank with cleaners and then washing it out. I was about to feed the spider but then I thought better of it and put some pieces of potato in the smaller holding tank for the crickets and decided to let them sit out overnight to make sure. The next day, 80% of the crickets were dead. I feel much better about not feeding the Ts with those crickets now.

Adrian



Adrian

Martin. I've only seen it once to a mature male. I would assume you've seen it happen in both sexes right?


There is a difference that I have seen between this and a pesticide death.

From the 2 pesticide deaths that I have seen 2 of the symptoms were aggressiveness and the inability to control the limbs. Normally docile t's became very aggressive and when prodded would only be able to stumble around. They died within a few days.

The 2 that died from pesticides were probably from crickets that were fed lettuce about 30 minutes before they were eaten. I now really wash anything very well and try to buy certified pesticide free. I can’t say for sure if the lettuce was the cause of death though bet better safe then sorry for now.

My P. Striata has it...

I thought my sling was way too young to be drumming. I was actually going to ask about this exact behavior, kinda like the spider gets "cold" for a sec. Is it allways fatal? Is my sling on the way out? What about the other spiders? They've eaten a bunch of the same crickets! Does age/size of spider matter? How far spread is this problem? If I must replace food source, how do I know if they're eny better? Please help...

Edit: I just caught the part about cigarette smoke. I smoked before handling my Striata. I washed my hands, but there's a possibility that maybee some remained. Also I hear nicotine is a potent pesticide. None of my other/larger spiders are showing this behavior.(They have same food source) I think there's a strong corrolation here.

Thanks, Matt.

Martin,
I looked at the videos and I am am not certain we are looking at the same disease. Do they start out like the T. blondi? and end up "dead to the touch" like the others? Where any of these T's super sensitive to light? and vibration?
I have had two autopsies in the past year where the owner had similar complaints including hypersensitivity to light and sound. One was an obvious nematode problem the other was inconclusive.
As for the necropsy report you quoted, finding nothing in the abdomen but goo is very common with T's that have died from either nematode infestations, bacterial infection or a yeast like organism. I have seen it many times.
Tell your friend to email me at bodiskyme@yahoo.com and I will help with his attempts at autopsy. I will also contact Larry to see what he can do as far as bacterial microbiology.
Kerry
RIESM

Hi,

Originally posted by tarcan

I assume that it is safer to put any specimens in quarantine but (I guess it is really too early to tell) do you have any evidence that this could be transmitted somehow from spiders to spiders in close by enclosures or for the moment the theory of the food preys carrying the possible pathogenic agent is the only plausible one?

Click to expand...

At the moment I can say nothing, because there is no evidence for anything, not if "bad" crickets are the reason, nor it's caused by bacterias, nor if it's a virus, nor if it's anything else. Just that several T keepers have spiders with these symptoms. On several german spider discussion boards are discussions about these problems, but without any results yet.

Since I came beware of the big problems with nematode in T collections about four years ago I put any new spider (but males for mating) in quarantine in a seperate room for several weeks to several month. And I breed my own food insects (roaches) and rarely buy crickets anymore.

Originally posted by tarcan

... I was told to put them in quarantine and was briefed on the situation you pointed in this thread...

Click to expand...

I think these problems are widely known but nobody wants to talk about it. IMHO the dealers are afraid to loose customers when they tell that they have had "shivering" specimens. Same with nematodes _ I know from a lot of dealers and breeders that they have had (and maybe still have) problems with nematodes in the past, but they would never talk about it in the public! The first discussions about problems with nematodes on a german tarantula mailing list had been about four years ago.

Originally posted by belewfripp

EDIT: I wonder what the method of transmission to the crickets is?

Click to expand...

At the moment there is no proof that it is caused by "bad crickets". It's just one of several thesis.

BTW, I know one who lost a lot of his theraphosids because he fed mice to his T's which have been treated with insecticides before, something the mice breeder didn't tell him. He brought the mice breeder into court and won.

Originally posted by belewfripp

Recently I had a batch of crickets that suffered large fatalities and became the target of a bunch of little flies who laid eggs everywhere in my cricket tank.

Click to expand...

Phoridae aka "scuttle flies"?

Originally posted by belewfripp

I shook out enough crickets to feed the spider and then tossed everything else in the trash before blasting the tank with cleaners and then washing it out. I was about to feed the spider but then I thought better of it and put some pieces of potato in the smaller holding tank for the crickets and decided to let them sit out overnight to make sure. The next day, 80% of the crickets were dead.

Click to expand...

BTW, some years ago a virus turned up who killed almost all subadult crickets (Acheta domesticus), they die before getting adults. The breeding of Acheta domesticus in Europe broke down almost completely. Instead of Acheta domesticus they are now breeding Gryllodes sigillatus. They still try to breed Acheta domesticus as "backbone", from time to time some are available, the "quality" is low, and from one day to the other the breeders can't offer them anymore because the breeding broke down again.
They examined the crickets and found a "Densonucleose"-virus which allegedly caused the problemes.

To my knowledge, last year a very big mealworm breeder in holland had similar problems with his mealwroms, they died before getting adult during the pupae stage.

...a lot of problems with invertebrates at the moment! =:-(

Originally posted by bodisky

I looked at the videos and I am am not certain we are looking at the same disease.

Click to expand...

Of course, these can also be similar symptoms caused by several different disease. At the moment almost nothing is known and there is no evidence for anything, not if "bad" crickets are the reason, nor it's caused by bacterias, nor if it's a virus, nor if it's anything else, nor if it is one and the same disease or different ones. Just that several T keepers have spiders with these symptoms. On several german spider discussion boards are discussions about these problems, but without any results yet.

Originally posted by bodisky

Do they start out like the T. blondi?

Click to expand...

It's not my specimen and I haven't seen it. I just know the video and red on a different discussion where the link of this video had been posted, that the T. blondi was in the final stage and died short after. The T. blondi was sent to the one who is collecting the infected specimens and when it arrived, he thought it's already dead. After unpacking it dropped on the back without moving. After some time has gone it "recovered" a little bit and he made these videos.

Originally posted by bodisky

and end up "dead to the touch" like the others? Where any of these T's super sensitive to light? and vibration?

Click to expand...

dunno

Originally posted by bodisky

Tell your friend to email me at bodiskyme@yahoo.com and I will help with his attempts at autopsy.

Click to expand...

I have sent him the link to this thread.

all the best,
Martin

Hi,

just for info another case:

The day before this B. smithi (CB 97, she got it as small spiderling and raised it herself) was fed with a baby rat. The owner of the tarantula is breeding the rats herself for her snake => no pesticids.

The day after when the owner of the spider removed the remains of the baby rat, she regocnized that the spider was trampling on the place where it was sitting, got cramps and was running through it's tank like crazy (the tank has a size of 60x30x30 cm). During that it has moved the hindlegs like it tried to flick urticating hairs.


here are some videos she took:

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At at the chelicera the spider had wet/glibbery stuff; the chelicera have been wide spread:

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All within one day!!

...the owner of the spider put it in the freezer to put the spider out of her misery. =:-(

all the best,
Martin

www.spiderpix.com
www.dearge.de

Originally posted by Martin H.
.Another one I know who has lost a lot of specimens has sent dead spiders and crickets to a institute (www.EXOMED.de) for examination. A rough summary of the results (was not easy to translate, especially the specialized terms):
Histology: a highgrade inflamed bowel with heavy "Proliferation" of inflame-cells, a starting necrosis. Almost no content in the bowel! In a histologic cut lots of big chopsticklike bacteria in the wall of the bowel. Sporadic "Microsporidien".

No sign for pesticide effect!

summary :
Besids a highgrade inflamed bowel with bacterial colonization no sign for the reason of death!
The crickets had mass of Microsporidien in the bowel, besides taht in the bowel and organs "intrazytoplasmatische Einschlüsse", virus suspicion!

all the best,
Martin

Click to expand...

That's some HARD stuff to look at!

Wouldn't the high bacterial level in the bowel be enough to kill it? It seems that in all of the cases, the behavior prior to death appears to be like like what nerve damage would be to us. Possibly brain-related?

"intrazytoplasmatische Einschlüsse" Is this suggestive of a virus that can be passed from T to T, cricket to T, mouse to T?

THANK YOU TO ALL WHO ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT ALL OF THESE MYSTERIES!!!

Martin,
So the onset of actual symtoms after eating the baby rat is not known correct?
Did she send the body on for autopsy/microbiology studies?
Martin, please convey my sympathies to her. This sort of thing is so hard. Also, please thank her for having the guts and compassion to put this poor thing out of its misery.
Kerry
RIESM

I do have another observation for you. I have had three tarantulas suffer VERY similar symptoms, all of which survived (all Selenocosmiinae). In all specimens no improvements were noticed until postmolt. In one specimen severely cracked (an almost shattered look) but complete unguis were observed on the exuvium. The fangs on the postmolt specimen were in perfect condition. I've never seen this with any other spider before.

In one specimen (same one with the cracked fangs) the symptoms lasted for over a year(spider would not eat).

Hope this helps in some remote way.
Steve

here is my B. boehmei, an hour ago:

video 1
video 1

and some fotos:
foto 1
foto 1
foto 1
foto 1

the spider is still alive

Man that sux!! I hope someone can come up with some answers for this. Is this situation happening more in Europe or are there an equal amount of cases here in the states?

Hello Kerry,

Originally posted by bodisky

So the onset of actual symtoms after eating the baby rat is not known correct?

Click to expand...

the day after feeding the baby rat she regocniced these symptoms but doesn't know when they started exactly.

Did she send the body on for autopsy/microbiology studies?

Click to expand...

to my knowledge she didn't.

all the best,
Martin

Originally posted by Martin H.

At the moment a friend of mine is collecting any specimen with such symptoms he can put is hands on, dead or alive, because he wants to study the problem. But to my knowledge no results yet and maybe there are different disease with similar symptoms.


One has reported, that almost only his ground dwellers show these symptoms but also some of his Avis and Poecies.

Click to expand...

he can use my boehmei.
i saw that geocities overloaded, so i uploaded the movies and the fotos >>here<< also.

your friend is Boris by any chance?
let me know
Eddy

it sux !! :[

i have haird about some simular casesys in poland happend to blondi and some avics

- i meen this shakeing thing but it wos thought to be the effect of termical shock .. ??...

i dont know if they had this fluid on heliceras ...


sory for refreshing but i think this topic is worth of this ...

I believe to have had a couple cases of this at my house.

I wanna say that it definately comes from something being ingested. After I noticed weird behavior, twitching, shaking, and such, they died only a day or two later. Seems that whatever happened to my Ts, didn't waste any time in killing them.

It also seems to attack and kill slings faster due to thier small size, I assume.

I also believe a T can recover from it on its own and ICU seemed to have helped. My large female T. blondi and 3"C. crawshayi both developed the symptoms everyone mentioned. I put them both in ICU for a few days. I actually gave up on ICU because it didn't look as it was helping, it could have and it couldn't have, I don't know. Anyways, I put them back in thier cages figuring that I have done everything I could for them and that I couldn't stop them from dying if they were going to. They both fully recovered and are doing great. Some of my other Ts weren't so lucky.

Here's a pic of my T. blondi displayed the weak/twitching symptom (notice the leg curling):





Here I was thinking that it was old age, but she's not even old.

That IS worth bringing back up, thanks. Seems we have been reading a lot of that lately...t's with the shakes/twitching, most dying.