Semantics or Ignorance???

Okay So I have been crusing the boards now for several months. Why is it that people insist on labeling tarantulas as agressive? Agression is an concoius act towards something. About the only possible thing a T could be accused of being agressive towards is crikets, roaches and other feeder insects. I know that this debate has taken place before but I had to start it here.

Tarantulas are nota gressive, they are defensive. If something threatens us we don't say we got agressive. We acted in a defensive manner. Why is it any different with tarantulas?

You're arguing semantics, or what I call the invert hobby's version of political correctness.

Aggressive/Defensive are equally used at the highest levels of science regarding our arachnids.

The only good reason, imo, to use defensive versus aggressive is to head the PC whining off at the pass.

In a way, they ARE aggresive. When you open your OBT enclosure, and it runs up your arm, stops on your face, and sinks it's fangs into your cheek, is that defending itself? Though they are'nt all aggresive, they are extremely defensive, actually offensive really. If they weren't aggresive, their wouldnt be about 200 people posting in the bite forum (check it out)

You'll see the word "aggressive" used quite a bunch here. People who have a little experience in this hobby will use "defencive". I agree with you. Aggressive is not the right choice of words best to describe a certain T. Almost any "defensive" type T will try to run and hide from you, when they are not stressed. Running and hiding, to me, is not an aggressive behavior. My H. Gigas for example. When I open her enclosure to change water etc..her first action is to hide in her burrow. If I take to long or come too close, she lets me know that it's unacceptable. Aggressive? Nah, just defending what's hers! That's my 2 cents. Good point CM on the whining!

BigHairy8's said:

You'll see the word "aggressive" used quite a bunch here. People who have a little experience in this hobby will use "defencive". I agree with you. Aggressive is not the right choice of words best to describe a certain T. Almost any "defensive" type T will try to run and hide from you, when they are not stressed. Running and hiding, to me, is not an aggressive behavior. My H. Gigas for example. When I open her enclosure to change water etc..her first action is to hide in her burrow. If I take to long or come too close, she lets me know that it's unacceptable. Aggressive? Nah, just defending what's hers! That's my 2 cents.

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wer're talking about "they usually run away" Thats what....30% of the time? many dont turn tail and run, many keepers have T's who will turn around and strike at them, thats not "defense" that's being aggresive.

People who have a little experience in this hobby will use "defencive".

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Actually, i find the more experienced keepers saying defensive, not aggresive.

1. Characterized by aggression: aggressive behavior.
2. Inclined to behave in an actively hostile fashion: an aggressive regime.
3. Assertive, bold, and energetic: an aggressive sales campaign.
4. Of or relating to an investment or approach to investing that seeks above-average returns by taking above-average risks.
5. Fast growing; tending to spread quickly and invade: an aggressive tumor.
6. Characterized by or inclined toward vigorous or intensive medical treatment: an aggressive approach to

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Self-defense refers to actions taken by a person to defend oneself, one's property or one's home.

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A "little" experience meaning more than owning one G. Rosea and have been around some H. lividums, for example. 30% of the time, turn tail? I'd like to see some formal stats on that figure. I've been bitten by "docile" T's. Never been bit by an "aggressive" T and mine have had plenty of chances. Never the less, there are some spiders that I would call "aggressive". Atrax Robusta anyone?

Yes, Scorp Guy! Defending ones home! :clap:

I have about 30 Ts now and id say there are some that are aggressive but it depends a lot on the individual T there are sp. how ever that are generally more agressive as has been brought up OBT also known as Pterinochilus murinus tends to be a littlle more on the aggressive side ive had my 3" try and strike me through the glass when i was working on the tank next to his. but I also have a 2" OBT that is calm enough that ive considered letting it walk on me: Note I dont think I will ever let it walk on me if I have a choice. something also to consider is that the only T I have that I would consider aggressive is the OBT even though I have a H. lividums, a T blondi, and a Phormictopus cancerides
scott

If you do a search you well see this aruged before.

Here is my advice.

Out of the 300 or so that I only three are considered agressive.
In no order
1.) H. lividum
2.) N. coloratovillosus
3.) P. ornata

The H.lividum i have had forever and a day, 7 years i think. From day one this one was a problem child. Bite through the box 6 times just getting her from the pet store. To day she lives in a 30x30x50 deep tank. Filled to the top.

Randomly,
I open the lid to the cage and she will come completely out of the hole and rear and fang at me. This is not defensive behavior. With 50 cm of substrate it is stupid to charge out of your hole and attack some thing you can not win a fight with. There is no reason for this.

This is aggressive. This is no different then a dog charging the fence snapping and bitting at the fence. If I do not close the cage she will charge out of the cage and charge me. This is the same as a dog jumping the fence and chasing you.

I can see that you can say that a dog that jumps the fence and chased people is defensive. But defensive means that you do something to stop you from being hurt, but not put yourself in worst place then you where to begin with.

N. coloratovillosus is generally a bad kid. Tries to escape every chance it gets. But will charge up the cage and bite every thing that moves. Once again. If it is defesive then why contunie the second that you are out of danger. Why fang everything that moves?

P. Ornata is more calmer then the others but if in the wronge mood will go berserk.

The point of this is out of 300, 3 are agressive. Out of those three, I have 7 h. lividums, 6. P. ornatas, and 3 N. coloratovillosus.

They are a mix of males and females.

The others of the collection, h lividum's are chickens, will run and and only fang when they are cornered. The 5 P. ornatas are sweeties, they are realy calm and handleable. The 2 N. coloratovillosus are defesive, flick hairs until I go away, but are not willing to bite.

3 will go off on you.

99% are consider defesive, 1% are considered aggressive.

Most defesive and aggressive tarantulas can be cured by proper housing.
But to say that all tarantulas are defesive states that you have not been in this hobby for long.

Lastly, every tarantula I have owned at one point or the other have shown aggressive behavoir. This is due to molts, hunger. and scents.

The one and only time I have almost been biten was by my B. smithi, I had her for 16-17 years old at the time. I changed the substrate in the males b. smithi cage grabbing him to get him out. Went into the females cage and she nearly took my hand off. 7 strikes at the hand. Stop put her away and washed my hands came back and she was the sweety she usually is. Smelled the male and went off.

Aggresive can not be placed on to a species but individuals can.
thedarkfinder.

PS
Any one that commits on this is giving advice.

Here is the truth about advice.

"Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth."- Mary Schmich

Sorry about the typing I seting right now on a glacier in southern oregon. shaking internet connection, with really bad keyboard.

BigHairy8's said:

Yes, Scorp Guy! Defending ones home! :clap:

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Why charge out of cage and try to fang someone a meter away. This is like me shooting you a block way from my house. I was defending my home.

Some info on aggressive and defensive:

aggressive

defensive

Shouldn't the question first be answered why the animal is in the aggressive state to begin with, in order to properly determine whether they are "aggressive" or "defensive"? Meaning, are they attacking just to attack, or are they attacking because they feel (I use this term very loosely) threatened in some way?

IMO, it's just a matter of interpretation.

I think because of the nature of the english language people interpret agressive wrong. I don't actually think defensive and aggressive should be used as synonymous opposites. It should be more like offensive and defensive; passive and aggressive.
A T may passively defend its home. ie: It hides, it takes a defensive stance, etc.
A T may aggresively defend its home. ie: It takes a threat posture (iow ready to strike, while defensive posture is ready to strike or flee)

Aggressive can have many connotations, but in this term, it basically means 'bold'. An example of what I mean using a vertabrate: Bull Sharks

Bull Sharks are not timid, they are bold. They are the most deadly and aggressive shark. In practice, this means they do not shy away from potential food as easily (more timid sharks like the hammerhead will flee from people even when a meal is present, while a bull shark will go for it) and are more direct and assertive in their actions.

I don't know how well I am explaining this... but basically the end point I am trying to make is people seem to be putting the context of aggressive in with human traits of "aggression" which would be anger and malevolence. Aggression doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other, they aren't mutually exclusive. It may be easier to think of aggression as 'lack of fear' though not accurate would give a better representation.

Arlius said:

I don't know how well I am explaining this... but basically the end point I am trying to make is people seem to be putting the context of aggressive in with human traits of "aggression" which would be anger and malevolence. Aggression doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other, they aren't mutually exclusive. It may be easier to think of aggression as 'lack of fear' though not accurate would give a better representation.

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I don't know why, either, but it's very illustrative of the problem. People turn to a dictionary that is written for everyday usage with people. Nowhere in an animal behavior course is somebody going to try and argue that we shouldn't be using the term aggressive for a silverback gorilla pounding the snot out of someone who came upon their base camp

I consider my Aphonopelma chalcodes 'defensive' when pushed (really really pushed). As example, one day I was doing tank cleaning and needed him to move (something Bernie does not do much of). After gently prodding him with a paint brush for several minutes he reared up and slapped it out of my hand.(He also scared the crud out of me) That, to me, is a defensive behavior. He didn't really care I was there, but he wasn't going to let me push him around either.

My Grammostola pulchra I consider 'aggressive'. One day I tried to take her waterdish and she rushed my tongs, missed, and wrapped the silk plant behind it in a very nasty bear hug. After pumping venom into the poor silk plant for a good minute she backed up and watched it to be sure it was dead.

The A chalcodes defended himself when his patience was tested.
The G pulchra aggressively defended her territory. Yes she was being defensive, but she was taking an aggressive position, vs Bernie who just got fed up with me.

There is a point in there somewhere, I think. :?

Arlius thank you for the Bull Shark example that was great I think it hit the spot for me

TheDarkFinder said:

The one and only time I have almost been biten was by my B. smithi, I had her for 16-17 years old at the time. I changed the substrate in the males b. smithi cage grabbing him to get him out. Went into the females cage and she nearly took my hand off. 7 strikes at the hand. Stop put her away and washed my hands came back and she was the sweety she usually is. Smelled the male and went off.

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thats crazy how she picked up the scent of the male tarantula.

I am one who typically makes a sarcastic comment when people ask about "aggression" in T's. I usually say something like, "the more aggressive tarantula is the one with the bigger knife". To me "aggresive" has the connotation of volitional thought and emotion, essentially more a "human" trait. Defensive on the other hand, while also a human characteristic can also apply to reaction without thought or just inate response. Beig the mere humans we are, we tend to place human qualities in our descriptions.