Centruroides Thread

Ythier · Jan 27, 2005

Hi,

It's seems that there are some confusion in some "big" Centruroides spp currently because we received recently some new species (essentially in EU, sorry over-seas friends

)

So I thought that we could post in this Thread the pics of adults or subadults "big" Centruroides spp we have.

Examples :
-C.gracilis and C.margaritatus (only if we are sure of the species)
-C.limbatus (black, typical and rubricauda morphs - only if we are sure of the species)
-"C.bicolor" (the species we received in Europe recently)
-"C.nigrimanus" (again a species sold recently in EU)
-And perhaps also pics of other specimens (adults or subadults) that we don't know the species : perhaps others will be able to help in the identification of it.

It should be also very useful if we could mention the sex of the specimen.

Perhaps that with this Thread we will be able to ID better the C.gracilis and margaritatus on picture, and we will be able to do ID the "new species" like C.limbatus ssp, bicolor, nigrimanus and others (it's always ennoying when someone do a bad identification of a new species, reproduce it and then diffuse the babies to many people with this wrong name).

Ok now I'm waiting for your opinion !

Greetings,
Eric

skinheaddave · Jan 27, 2005

Ythier said:
Ok now I'm waiting for your opinion !

Okay, my opinion: I have a lot of papers on this genus. In fact, it is the only genus that has a completely seperate file just for its papers. Back when I had just a couple papers, I was pretty sure of some of my IDs. Now that I have a lot more, and have seen a lot more specimens, I have come to the conclusion that Centruroides ID is messed up. There are very few species which I can ID with any certainty. C.margaritatus in particular is prevelent within the trade but is highly polymorphic, both superficially and in detail. I have seen several specimens which fit C.margaritatus better than any other species, but show variations that could be considered outside of any description. In many ways this is the Avicularia of the scorpion world and I don't know how successful these IDing efforts will be.

Cheers,
Dave

SpaceHawk · Jan 27, 2005

It may be good for people who know what they are looking at, but not so good for novices or people who don't keep a whole lot of Centruoides spp. I don't know what to look for in a lot of species of scorpions to identify them, but it may help me to learn something. Birds/reptiles...I know...scorpions are like having to memorize the whole phone book. You have to obsess about one family of scorpions and learn about them, then move on to next group just to retain it all and be able to know what to look for without a doubt. There sure are a lot of them out there, especially for this group...it would be a big thread.

smalltime · Jan 27, 2005

It would be usefull anyway to compare photo's from supposedly the same species. A good idea...

G. Carnell · Jan 27, 2005

and for lovely pics of centruroides species

whats this C.nigrimanus? *waits for pics*

fusion121 · Jan 27, 2005

Good idea, I've IDed these guys using the info I could find and I'm pretty sure all the names are correct. But as people have said they are not easy to ID. One thing that seems to often conflict/vary in papers is carinae patterns on the prosoma. (sorry big pics)

Centruroides gracilis female:

Centruroides limbatus female:

Centruroides limbatus male:

Centruroides bicolor 4th instar male:

Brian S · Jan 27, 2005

These were labeled as C limbatus but they look more like gracilis to me. Any ideas?

SpaceHawk · Jan 27, 2005

Definitly for the pictures! Pictures are always good (even if I don't know what it is).

skinheaddave · Jan 27, 2005

fusion121 said:
Centruroides bicolor 4th instar male:

How sure are you about this? I got some "C.bicolor" that looked just like this but details like denticles were way off any description of C.bicolor that I could find. I ended up pegging them as a very neat morph of C.margaritatus (incidentally, I currently have about 60 of these due to some births).

Cheers,
Dave

fusion121 · Jan 27, 2005

With these guys I'm not at all sure. I don't have any original papers for C. bicolor, there was some debate about them a while back and the taxonomy seems rather screwy (http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=34496). Alex posted some excellent ID characters of bicolor and margaritatus, neither of which seemed to fit this species exactly. It was sold to me as C. bicolor so I've kept it labeled as that till they mature, when hopefully they'll be easier to ID and I'll have some time to visit the BAS library (sorry I should have made that clear on the picture). As a note I counted 8 rows of denticles on one of the 2nd instars I had, I'll try and recount now they are larger.

fusion121 · Jan 27, 2005

As a little evidence for the C. bicolor case heres a picture of a C. bicolor adult and scorpling (between which there is a great deal of variation), as you can see the scorpling colouration is very similar to the one I posted and the adult my scorpling came from looks identical to the adult in this picture. The one is this picture was ID'ed by Stockwell (so I'm assuming it rights) and comes from his old site (the site is no longer online and so I can't post a link):

Of course I realise this kind of evidence is of a purely superficial nature.

G. Carnell · Jan 27, 2005

thats a very very beautiful scorp.....

i like the way the babies have a kind of "spine" colouration, makes they look evil

Ythier · Jan 27, 2005

fusion121 said:
As a little evidence for the C. bicolor case heres a picture of a C. bicolor adult and scorpling (between which there is a great deal of variation), as you can see the scorpling colouration is very similar to the one I posted and the adult my scorpling came from looks identical to the adult in this picture. The one is this picture was ID'ed by Stockwell (so I'm assuming it rights) and comes from his old site (the site is no longer online and so I can't post a link):

Of course I realise this kind of evidence is of a purely superficial nature.

Hi,
I have the same species of you (and of Alex, and of many guys in EU now).
I saw also the mother of our specimens and it looked like a lot to C.bicolor. So I was totally agree to say that we have C.bicolor.
But as Alex said in the past thread, it's definitively not this species, because of the denticles and pectines. I just looked to a molt and I confirm again the number of denticles (8) and pectines teeths (29, so between 24-34).
So regarding the Franke & Stockwell, it's neither C.bicolor nor C.limbatus (denticles 9), and neither C.koesteri nor C.thorelli (pectines 21-26 and 12-14), so I agree with Dave and Alex for a different morph of C.margaritatus (denticles 8, pectines 24-34).
For Alex in the past thread, the granulation of margaritatus's chelae didn't correspond... I can't reply on this point because my specimens are still young and the granulation is still very simple, but compared to number of denticles/pectines teeths, I don't think granulation is very important, and in the Franke & Stockwell the draws compare a female margaritatus to a male bicolor, so...
Ok I agree with Alex and Dave for a "Costa-rican morph" of C.margaritatus.
Greetings,
Eric

fusion121 · Jan 27, 2005

Hi
That sounds perfectly sensible, I'm willing to go with general consensus of the experts, though now I'll have to print new labels

Excellent macros by the way

Ythier · Jan 27, 2005

Some other pics (that I'm sure of the ID) :

Female C.margaritatus from Colombia :

Male C.margaritatus from Honduras (btw, margaritatus isn't listed from Honduras in the Fet

) :

Couple C.gracilis from Colombia :

Another couple from Colombia (...the male is very different from the one on the previous picture !)

Comparison of females gracilis/margaritatus :

...

Ythier · Jan 27, 2005

...and 3 others (sorry for the big copyrights but pics are not mine - thanks Patrick, thanks Giorgio).

THE mother margaritatus from Costa Rica (mm...looks like a C.bicolor

)

Again...

And a male C.limbatus typical morph.

Greetings,
Eric

Ythier · Jan 27, 2005

fusion121 said:
now I'll have to print new labels

...I will have to change all the pics on my website

fusion121 · Jan 27, 2005

Great pics, the colour variations in Centruroides are immense, C. limbatus alone seems to range from bright yellow to pitch black

Tityus · Jan 27, 2005

Hi Eric

Very Nice pictures when can I come shopping with a big bag at your home :} :worship: :worship: :worship:

I hope you will make a scorpion book and share some of your knowledge I order directly 2 books :clap:

Ythier · Jan 27, 2005

fusion121 said:
C. limbatus alone seems to range from bright yellow to pitch black

But you have also a yellow limbatus, no ?
Btw I forgot to say, I have some adult males and females gracilis of 7-8cm (0,3in) and, coming from the same brood, I have some adult males and females of only 3-4cm (1,4in) ! I thought that they were young but they didn't want to grow, so I put them together, and they mate !

First time I see such little adults gracilis, it seems that this species, such as margaritatus, is quite variable

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