The T keeper's guide, revised edition, thoughts?

ThomasH said:

... Conditioning to be handled is impossible for Theriphosids as far as the scientists and hobbyists of today know. ...

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Sorry. I hate to rain on your picnic, but this is dead wrong. We've been doing it for decades. So have dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of others.

This is particularly evident with the members of the Subfamily Theraphosinae, although members of other Subfamilies are by no means exempt. This Subfamily contains many of the more popular New World genera such as Aphonopelma, Brachypelma, Grammostola and a host of others.

In these it's not uncommon for newly captured individuals to bare their fangs and even attempt to bite the first time they are picked up. (Note that "picking up" is vastly different from merely herding them onto your outstretched hand. A lot safer for the tarantula too.) However, most species will, with successive handling, tame down quite nicely. With being handled in such fashion fewer than a dozen times (and for many, significantly fewer than this) they soon fail to turn to face the approaching hand, or adopt a defensive posture, or extend their fangs, or even struggle once in your grasp. There are clearly cases where they almost seem to enjoy being picked up, if projecting such a vertebrate emotion on them could be entertained as valid.

As I mentioned above, members of other Subfamilies also can be so conditioned as well. Pinktoes (genus Avicularia) come to mind. When first brought into captivity or first handled they tend to be rather high strung to the point of defecating at their handler (or anyone else standing nearby!), or even leaping from the hand. But with repeated, gentle handling many will tame to the point where they may be gently herded onto one's hand and allowed to "climb the ladder" without any overt signs of panic or concerted attempts to flee or jump.

Avicularia serve as a particularly good example because while being handled they tend to be rather jumpy and high strung, perhaps hyperactive would be a good description of it. And one might advance the argument that this hyperactivity is an indication that they are ill at ease with human contact and are, therefore, still not conditioned. I discount that, however, because after being handled several times, their level of hyperactivity declines, they stop defecating (if they ever did in the first place), and they stop leaping as though trying to escape (again, if they ever did in the first place). Say what you will, but this sounds a lot like conditioning to me. I'm sure Pavlov would have accepted it.

ThomasH said:

... Have you considered the possibility that your self confidence with the animal hasn't made handling easier? ...

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Undoubtedly! But, my self confidence would have little to do with the spider failing to erect it's fangs, for instance.

Asserting that tarantulas (or any other creature for that matter) are incapable of being conditioned implies that they are incapable of changing their responses to varying conditions or stimuli. The fact is that those creatures that are incapable of such changes are the ones that become extinct. There are far to many species of tarantulas living in far too many niches spread over far too much geography and far to much of geological time for that to be true.

End of Biology 101 class. Quiz on Friday.

Stan: Good post, I was going to cite the case of one of our older member who had a similar experience with his H. schmidti when he had to pick it up to remove mites. He, too, noticed that after a few treatments it no longer tried to bite him. But I think you did a much better job.:clap:

ThomasH: If you're going make claims like ..

Conditioning to be handled is impossible for Theriphosids as far as the scientists and hobbyists of today know

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then you'd better be prepared to cite research papers and names. Can you?

Pikaia said:

Sorry. I hate to rain on your picnic, but this is dead wrong. We've been doing it for decades. So have dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of others.

This is particularly evident with the members of the Subfamily Theraphosinae, although members of other Subfamilies are by no means exempt. This Subfamily contains many of the more popular New World genera such as Aphonopelma, Brachypelma, Grammostola and a host of others.

In these it's not uncommon for newly captured individuals to bare their fangs and even attempt to bite the first time they are picked up. (Note that "picking up" is vastly different from merely herding them onto your outstretched hand. A lot safer for the tarantula too.) However, most species will, with successive handling, tame down quite nicely. With being handled in such fashion fewer than a dozen times (and for many, significantly fewer than this) they soon fail to turn to face the approaching hand, or adopt a defensive posture, or extend their fangs, or even struggle once in your grasp. There are clearly cases where they almost seem to enjoy being picked up, if projecting such a vertebrate emotion on them could be entertained as valid.

As I mentioned above, members of other Subfamilies also can be so conditioned as well. Pinktoes (genus Avicularia) come to mind. When first brought into captivity or first handled they tend to be rather high strung to the point of defecating at their handler (or anyone else standing nearby!), or even leaping from the hand. But with repeated, gentle handling many will tame to the point where they may be gently herded onto one's hand and allowed to "climb the ladder" without any overt signs of panic or concerted attempts to flee or jump.

Avicularia serve as a particularly good example because while being handled they tend to be rather jumpy and high strung, perhaps hyperactive would be a good description of it. And one might advance the argument that this hyperactivity is an indication that they are ill at ease with human contact and are, therefore, still not conditioned. I discount that, however, because after being handled several times, their level of hyperactivity declines, they stop defecating (if they ever did in the first place), and they stop leaping as though trying to escape (again, if they ever did in the first place). Say what you will, but this sounds a lot like conditioning to me. I'm sure Pavlov would have accepted it.

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Do you have proof? For this to be valid you would need multiple handlers of the same Theriphosid.
What has been going on for decades in my not so humble opinion is that people adapt to handling instead of the Theraphosid "learning." For example, when one buys a new Avic, they will be jumpy with it and will most likely project it to discomfort. Thus causing an undesirable result, poop shooting, urticulated hair rubbing, jumping unsafely, biting, etc. The person then learns that such action caused that reaction and the person stops doing that action, thus causing Theraphosid in question to become "more docile." We are both theorising here. Unless one of us has an actual citation that is completely valid, we are pretty much just going to be at ends and equally as valid.
Pavlov's results could be measured by the valves he surgically made in the dog's dirty drool track. Wet food = Less drool, Dry food = More drool. That is different entirely and you know it. What we are arguing can't just simply be measured.

Pikaia said:

Undoubtedly! But, my self confidence would have little to do with the spider failing to erect it's fangs, for instance.

Asserting that tarantulas (or any other creature for that matter) are incapable of being conditioned implies that they are incapable of changing their responses to varying conditions or stimuli. The fact is that those creatures that are incapable of such changes are the ones that become extinct. There are far to many species of tarantulas living in far too many niches spread over far too much geography and far to much of geological time for that to be true.

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Self confidence equals not being afraid. Fear causes mistakes such as twitching that leads to a bite. "Knowing you can do it" is a lot different than trying but worrying, that is where mistakes are made leading to displeasurable experiences to both keeper and captive.
Natural selection does not require mental conditioning. Their conditioning wasn't mental, it was simply natural selection. [I.E. not blending in, not being potent enough, etc., etc.]
TBH

T_DORKUS said:

ThomasH: If you're going make claims like ..

then you'd better be prepared to cite research papers and names. Can you?

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Can he cite valid ones. The cases available just aren't convincing.
TBH

the man has been keeping T's since years before you were even born. what makes you think that you know better than him? if you think you can write a better book than lets see you go right ahead. if not why dont you play nice and stop critisizing someone who has provided a tool that has helped thousands of people worldwide provide better care for their beloved pets out of the kindness of his heart?





john

We are both theorising here. Unless one of us has an actual citation that is completely valid, we are pretty much just going to be at ends and equally as valid.

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I don't know where to begin to plug the holes in your logic. And I don't want to try.
Wake up ThomasH! You lost all benefit of the doubt with your first few comments. I like the one where you disagreed with Stan about seeking medical attention!:clap: You are definitely entitled to your opinions.
Feel free to write a book of your own. Lets see how well it stacks up against Stan's.

pandinus said:

the man has been keeping T's since years before you were even born. what makes you think that you know better than him? if you think you can write a better book than lets see you go right ahead. if not why dont you play nice and stop critisizing someone who has provided a tool that has helped thousands of people worldwide provide better care for their beloved pets out of the kindness of his heart?

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AMEN!

ThomasH said:

Have you considered the possibility that your self confidence with the animal hasn't made handling easier?
TBH

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I haven't considered it..because I have the utmost confidence and no fear when handling my T's. I'm not afraid to get hair flicked or take a bite ..it won't be the first time and it certainly wont be my last..

Whoa People!

Let's not let this devolve into a flame war.* We all have a right to our own opinions, as well as a right to voice them... as long as we show some common sense and civility.

For what it's worth, the subjects of conditioning and learning, vis-à-vis tarantulas, has been discussed, argued, and flamed on these various forums many times. All you need do is hit the Search link in the header and type the terms to review the postings.

* A peculiar phenomenon: I've been monitoring and contributing to a number of Internet based mailing lists, forums, and message boards since the very early 90s, and I've noticed a very strange thing. We almost never see flame wars or even their precursors until July and August! There appears to be something about the summer doldrums that brings out that irrational hostility in some of us. Go figure.

This year we should resist!

Pikaia said:

Whoa People!

Let's not let this devolve into a flame war.* We all have a right to our own opinions, as well as a right to voice them... as long as we show some common sense and civility.

For what it's worth, the subjects of conditioning and learning, vis-à-vis tarantulas, has been discussed, argued, and flamed on these various forums many times. All you need do is hit the Search link in the header and type the terms to review the postings.

* A peculiar phenomenon: I've been monitoring and contributing to a number of Internet based mailing lists, forums, and message boards since the very early 90s, and I've noticed a very strange thing. We almost never see flame wars or even their precursors until July and August! There appears to be something about the summer doldrums that brings out that irrational hostility in some of us. Go figure.

This year we should resist!

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You're right and i apologize. i'm just a very big fan of your book, i dont have the new edition yet but my old copy is dogeared roughed up and generally falling apart from overreading, so i cant ait to get the new edition. and it makes me upset to see a kid critisizing someone who does something of great sacrifice for virtually no reawrd other than the gratitude of others. so i get a bit defensive. youre awesome Stan, looking forward to the new edition.





John

Thomas H is 14

The kid is 14 according to his profile. When I was 14 I thought I knew more than all of you combined and would have told you so too, lol I understand the concern for our kind authors dignity, but I don't think they will loose it from him! I am not saying don't tell him he is wrong, just don't get too emotional. He's having hormones going through him that make him emotional and irrational. It happens. We all have had our moments....

As for the topic of the thread, the TKG, all I have to say is thank you....
I had a T back when I was a lot closer to thomas' age. I had a $5 pet store book. I wish I knew then, what I know now. I got back into T's, and now other arachnids, just in the past year. This book has been invaluable to me. I wouldn't have nearly as many, nor take as good of care of them, if not for this book. But most importantly, especially to you reading this; I would have about 300,000 postings of "stupid" questions on here, as would many others I presume... I would also like to say that they did a great job imo of explaining multiple times in the book that they aren't the end all be all of all things T's and that there are differing valid opinions from theirs as well..
Thanks for TKG. Everyone should have a copy. Peace, Ryan

You guys are focusing too much on his age. He brought up a valid point and I'm sure he's not the only one on the boards with that opinion. In fact, I think he's in the majority.

I haven't had enough handling experience to say anything either way.

Edit: But I can say something about the T. blondi matter... I've never had any mites, flies or anything like that. They don't need THAT much humidity as adults. I only raise it really high, when they are close to a molt.

What really bothered me about it though is that he kept making it sound that tetanus would sometimes result from a tarantula bite. He also kept urging people to go to the hospital/ER after certain sp. bites. That is completely unneccessary and quite frankly brings bad press to the hobby. Seriously, what does he think that the hospital can do besides inject pain meds which are artificial aid and could cause dependency? Plus if insurance found out about the hospital trip, you could lose coverage or be forced to surrender the "offending" invert.

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Any wound has a chance of being infected. Sounds like good advice to take precautions.
Nothing wrong with going to the hospital to get relief. Esp. if you have trouble breathing or you are in a lot of pain- again- good advice.
Could cause dependency? uh huh
Insurance companies could not be bothered with what pets you keep. They can't force you to do anything! The most they can do is not honor your claim or raise your rates.

Yes but you can easily get rid of the flies from my experience. Just be veeery sanitary and kill all on sight just physically [NO PESTICIDES.] and they disappear in just weeks.

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If you just have a small collection, a few flies and nothing else better to do, this is certainly possible.

Conditioning to be handled is impossible for Theriphosids as far as the scientists and hobbyists of today know. Have you considered the possibility that your self confidence with the animal hasn't made handling easier?

Click to expand...

Then later...

We are both theorising here. Unless one of us has an actual citation that is completely valid, we are pretty much just going to be at ends and equally as valid.

Click to expand...

I don't know if a T can be conditioned/tamed/taught anything. I've read ThomasH "theory" before and I have read other accounts of behavior that seem to indicate that T's are more than very simple creatures responding to stimuli in a very predictable manner.
But to say that scientists and hobbyists know that they can't be conditioned is certainly misleading. It is statements like these that perpetuate falsehoods on the internet. Other people reading stuff like this will think it is a commonly accepted fact and go on to spread it across other forums. Seen often enough and people start believing it. Maybe they can be taught, maybe they can't- but until I see something definitive like a properly conducted study, I'll keep an open mind about it.
To say that a T will let you pick it up(and I'm not talking about shuffling a T onto a hand) just because you are sending out "confidence/good" vibes sounds a little far fetched to me. BTW don't many T's have poor eyesight, so how can they "see" your signals? If they were the simple creatures responding to stimuli as some would have you believe, they would respond to an approaching hand the same way each time. To dismiss this by assuming the person did something different and learned not to give the wrong signals is just refusing to accept something that possibly contradicts their "theory".

Self confidence equals not being afraid. Fear causes mistakes such as twitching that leads to a bite. "Knowing you can do it" is a lot different than trying but worrying, that is where mistakes are made leading to displeasurable experiences to both keeper and captive.

Click to expand...

ThomasH claims people get bit because they are not confident or were nervous or scared. Look through the bite reports. How many people got bitten because they were scared? Most of the bites have been to people who were not afraid. Scared people don't tend to take risks. Over confidence is what lead people to make mistakes.

Let's not forget it is a guide not a set of unbreakable rules. It is a good starting point for every beginner, but certainly there are more ways to do any particular thing. So if you have a different opinion or a different method, share it but don't go finding fault with it simply because you disagree with it.

pandinus said:

the man has been keeping T's since years before you were even born. what makes you think that you know better than him? if you think you can write a better book than lets see you go right ahead. if not why dont you play nice and stop critisizing someone who has provided a tool that has helped thousands of people worldwide provide better care for their beloved pets out of the kindness of his heart?





john

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pandinus said:

You're right and i apologize. i'm just a very big fan of your book, i dont have the new edition yet but my old copy is dogeared roughed up and generally falling apart from overreading, so i cant ait to get the new edition. and it makes me upset to see a kid critisizing someone who does something of great sacrifice for virtually no reawrd other than the gratitude of others. so i get a bit defensive. youre awesome Stan, looking forward to the new edition.





John

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You are using the age card and not even considering what I wrote. There IS incorrect information in many books and many honorable people have slipped up before. No man's word is gold, just chill out bro. I am having a discussion here, not a flame war. I am contesting information and I am sure that Stan welcomes that. Stan is a hobbyist with a thirst for knowledge, I don't think a brief intellectual discussion will be too disturbing to him.
TBH

T_DORKUS said:

I don't know where to begin to plug the holes in your logic. And I don't want to try.
Wake up ThomasH! You lost all benefit of the doubt with your first few comments. I like the one where you disagreed with Stan about seeking medical attention!:clap: You are definitely entitled to your opinions.
Feel free to write a book of your own. Lets see how well it stacks up against Stan's.

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I don't have to write a book to know things. I have no desire to write a book but I do respect that Stan wrote one.
What is the hospital/ER going to do for you that will actually help? The most they can do is give you pain meds. That is artificial help and could cause dependency which is a heck of a lot worse than pain for a few days as a maximum result. How many people have had allergies to T venom, died from it, or had real breathing difficulty from it? It just isn't worth going to the hospital for.
TBH

Sarcastro said:

AMEN!



I haven't considered it..because I have the utmost confidence and no fear when handling my T's. I'm not afraid to get hair flicked or take a bite ..it won't be the first time and it certainly wont be my last..

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Enough with the age card, it makes nothing less or more valid. Self confidence does not equal overconfidence. Self confidence means that you aren't too scared. Over confidence means thinking that you are bullet proof.
TBH

Nomadinexile said:

The kid is 14 according to his profile. When I was 14 I thought I knew more than all of you combined and would have told you so too, lol I understand the concern for our kind authors dignity, but I don't think they will loose it from him! I am not saying don't tell him he is wrong, just don't get too emotional. He's having hormones going through him that make him emotional and irrational. It happens. We all have had our moments....

As for the topic of the thread, the TKG, all I have to say is thank you....
I had a T back when I was a lot closer to thomas' age. I had a $5 pet store book. I wish I knew then, what I know now. I got back into T's, and now other arachnids, just in the past year. This book has been invaluable to me. I wouldn't have nearly as many, nor take as good of care of them, if not for this book. But most importantly, especially to you reading this; I would have about 300,000 postings of "stupid" questions on here, as would many others I presume... I would also like to say that they did a great job imo of explaining multiple times in the book that they aren't the end all be all of all things T's and that there are differing valid opinions from theirs as well..
Thanks for TKG. Everyone should have a copy. Peace, Ryan

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Relax, I don't necessarily think I know more than you, though I haven't ruled out that possibility. Especially regarding your all-too-frequent misspellings and crude grammatical errors.

Nomadinexile said:

I understand the concern for our kind authors dignity, but I don't think they will loose it from him!

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Correction - I understand the concerns for our kind author's dignity, though I don't think the author would lose it due to ThomasH.

Your point is invalid and basically useless. Refer back to my postings and try to find it in your "wise" brain to enterpret those points.

TBH

I'm with ThomasH here. The only reason you guys aren't taking him seriously is his age. Besides, "write your own book then" is probably the most ridiculous argument ever, if you can even call it that. It's like you guys think what's been written MUST be the truth. But then again, there are the christians...

And no, I'm NOT saying the book is wrong (except for the blondi part). I'm just saying, you should question things more. Atleast try to bring something more constructive here.

T_DORKUS said:

Any wound has a chance of being infected. Sounds like good advice to take precautions.
Nothing wrong with going to the hospital to get relief. Esp. if you have trouble breathing or you are in a lot of pain- again- good advice.
Could cause dependency? uh huh.

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Paper cuts are wounds, do you go to the hospital everytime you get one? Pain killers often do cause dependency. There is a member on these boards that was addicted to painkillers. [JadeSpider85, I believe?]

T_DORKUS said:

Insurance companies could not be bothered with what pets you keep. They can't force you to do anything! The most they can do is not honor your claim or raise your rates..

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Yes, they could be bothered. Not honoring the claim and raising your rates could cost you thousands over a life time. Also, often times home owner's insurance will either make you get rid of your animals or deny you coverage. I know a guy that had to surrender his collection of perfectly innocent snakes because he let it slip out that he had them when applying for coverage.

T_DORKUS said:

If you just have a small collection, a few flies and nothing else better to do, this is certainly possible.

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It is as simple a swatting them when you see them. Collection size doesn't really matter that much. Often times the flies never even present themselves with a blondi.

T_DORKUS said:

I don't know if a T can be conditioned/tamed/taught anything. I've read ThomasH "theory" before and I have read other accounts of behavior that seem to indicate that T's are more than very simple creatures responding to stimuli in a very predictable manner.

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Mmmmkay? Validation?

T_DORKUS said:

But to say that scientists and hobbyists know that they can't be conditioned is certainly misleading. It is statements like these that perpetuate falsehoods on the internet. Other people reading stuff like this will think it is a commonly accepted fact and go on to spread it across other forums. Seen often enough and people start believing it. Maybe they can be taught, maybe they can't- but until I see something definitive like a properly conducted study, I'll keep an open mind about it..

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I said something along the lines of... "as far as scientists know, tarantulas can't be taught." Very different than what you accuse me of saying.

T_DORKUS said:

To say that a T will let you pick it up(and I'm not talking about shuffling a T onto a hand) just because you are sending out "confidence/good" vibes sounds a little far fetched to me. BTW don't many T's have poor eyesight, so how can they "see" your signals? If they were the simple creatures responding to stimuli as some would have you believe, they would respond to an approaching hand the same way each time. To dismiss this by assuming the person did something different and learned not to give the wrong signals is just refusing to accept something that possibly contradicts their "theory".

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I said nothing about vibes or sight, what I was saying is that T keepers subconsciously learn the ropes of handling each individual. They don't do the things that caused unpleasent reactions after a while and the T starts appearing docile. Remember, the subconcious mind consists of 90% of the active mind, but then again, what the heck does Sigmund Freud know about the brain?

T_DORKUS said:

ThomasH claims people get bit because they are not confident or were nervous or scared. Look through the bite reports. How many people got bitten because they were scared? Most of the bites have been to people who were not afraid. Scared people don't tend to take risks. Over confidence is what lead people to make mistakes.

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It's hard to explain, but in a nut shell, confidence does not equal over confidence.

T_DORKUS said:

Let's not forget it is a guide not a set of unbreakable rules. It is a good starting point for every beginner, but certainly there are more ways to do any particular thing. So if you have a different opinion or a different method, share it but don't go finding fault with it simply because you disagree with it.

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Just a discussion. You and John/Pandinus are getting dramatic. If I actually mirrored the emotion that you guys brought, this would be a "flame war."

TBH

Like ThomasH, I don't aggree with everything written in the TKG either.

Does that make me ''hormonal'' and ''irrational'' also?

He is entitled to disagree,it is his god given right to do so.

And just because someone can write a book on something doesent mean everything in that book is correct or the best way to things.

Relax. Like I said, some people have a problem discussing with younger hobbyists. Maybe it has something to do with the way they were raised? But hey! I've read this somewhere! So it MUST be the truth!